Define Evil.

This is the Evil Discussion Board. Not quasi-evil, not semi-evil, not the Diet Coke of evil. Only truly evil people may enter.

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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 15th, 2005, 12:24 pm

the sun can stay in orbit on its own, and so can the rest of the laws of phisics. I don't suppose that it takes much effort for a ball to fall on the floor when you drop it, even if it did take effor tot lift it in the first place. What I'm trying to say is that the universe runs in inertia more or less - nothing that requires divine intervention has happened since the big bang (not including the bang itself, if you insist).
Taking what the bible has to say into account, god was very active 4000 years ago and was meddling all over the place. Why doesn't he do it today? Or do you think the bible is what people without scientific knowledge wrote when they encountered weird fenomenas. In that case, all the rules mentioned in the bible are not the word of god, and should not be followed blindly. If you don't bother with the more archaic stuff, you find that I actually do live pretty decent life: not killing or stealing or working on saturday (having fun is not work), not worshipping anything, not coveting my neighbors' anything, not making idols, not lying, ect.
As far as the kosher business goes, I find it obsoleate, especially now that I learn food engineering and know what's the real deal.
The rest of the rules are either general principles that I actually follow, or specific cases that don't apply because the technology has changed so much it's irrelevant.
by all that, I'm a good jewish girl. I don't have to demean myself to anything or anyone just because they happen to be stronger than me.
As for me demanding stuff like a small girl - god supposedly helped the jews in egypt, when they needed him - why didn' he help the jews in WW2? were they less jewish? were they bad people? didn't they deserve help against an oppressor?
No - the answer is that either god didn't help them because he doesn't care, in which case i don't see why I should care for him, or he doesn't exist, in which case I already have an imaginary friend, I don't need another.


Wars started by jews - I guess bombing innocent civilians in the occupied territories isn't war to you, so I'll give you another example - in 1982 we invaded lebanon. I'm still not sure what was the point, but it was definitly us doing the invading.
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Postby wizzard » December 15th, 2005, 1:00 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:the sun can stay in orbit on its own, and so can the rest of the laws of phisics.


A system that keeps going by itself is far cleverer than one which requires constant intervention. The way I see it, whether it evolved or spontaneously appeared or something else, G-d is to thank for it. I don't see any other reason why a universe should just spontaneously appear.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:What I'm trying to say is that the universe runs in inertia more or less - nothing that requires divine intervention has happened since the big bang (not including the bang itself, if you insist).


Well, the world is a pretty complex place these days, and overt miracles aren't needed - a lot can be achieved by putting the right thought in the right person's head, by changing the outcome of events so that a cat distracts someone for 5 seconds and he just misses being killed by a truck with failed brakes, by a car not starting so someone is late for a train and misses a bomb detonating - there are so many factors which affect people's lives these days that are unpredictable - miracles don't have to be so overt anymore. Put the right information in the right place and you can start a war.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Taking what the bible has to say into account, god was very active 4000 years ago and was meddling all over the place. Why doesn't he do it today?


I don't know. We're talking about an omnipotent being here. See above for an idea. Maybe the human race grew up a bit since then and G-d has stepped back to let us deal with the consequences of our own actions?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Or do you think the bible is what people without scientific knowledge wrote when they encountered weird fenomenas.


Nope.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:In that case, all the rules mentioned in the bible are not the word of god, and should not be followed blindly.


Who says you are supposed to follow them blindly anyway? Orthodox Jews especially spend most of their time asking questions about them.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:As far as the kosher business goes, I find it obsoleate, especially now that I learn food engineering and know what's the real deal.


You're assuming that kosher is only for hygeine and health. Also, we still don't know everything about every type of food.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The rest of the rules are either general principles that I actually follow, or specific cases that don't apply because the technology has changed so much it's irrelevant.


You're assuming that you actually understand the point in any of it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:by all that, I'm a good jewish girl.


You can't just pick and choose the bits you want to keep. I'm not saying I keep everything perfectly, but at least I admit I'm not perfect.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I don't have to demean myself to anything or anyone just because they happen to be stronger than me.


No one is asking you to.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:As for me demanding stuff like a small girl - god supposedly helped the jews in egypt, when they needed him - why didn' he help the jews in WW2?


He did - some of us are still here, aren't we? Wasn't it something like 80% of the Jewish people died in Egypt too?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:were they less jewish? were they bad people? didn't they deserve help against an oppressor?
No - the answer is that either god didn't help them because he doesn't care, in which case i don't see why I should care for him, or he doesn't exist, in which case I already have an imaginary friend, I don't need another.


Either that or you are looking at things totally the wrong way and you can't accept that we just don't know why it happened like that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Wars started by jews - I guess bombing innocent civilians in the occupied territories isn't war to you,


Innocent civilians who are building bombs and sending in suicide bombers to blow up shoppers in crowded shopping centres?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:so I'll give you another example - in 1982 we invaded lebanon. I'm still not sure what was the point, but it was definitly us doing the invading.


That was in response to the repeated attacks from the PLO and other terrorist groups crossing that border and forcing people to flee their homes - attacks which the UN had been unable to stop. There was also the 6000 mercenaries massing with arms on the other side of the border, and the attempted assassination of the Israeli Ambassador to Great Britain.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: "No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids" (Washington Post, June 16, 1982).

"On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent Lebanon," President Reagan said June 21, 1982. "We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north."

You can't deny that it worked, too. The attacks were vastly reduced in frequency in the North. You just refuse to accept that sometimes violence is necessary - especially if someone else is threatening and/or attacking you.

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Postby Findtherma » December 15th, 2005, 1:14 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:look - personally I don't accept most of your points, and can offer reasonable explenations to the rest.


Thats not an argument. Which points do you not accept and where are your reasonable explenations? Don't treat me like I'm stupid.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The cause of wars is rarely religion itself, but to get the actual people to fight it, you do need it (the small people don't get the land, the money and definitly not the sex). It's best to declare that nation infidels and the silly little people will do the rest.


Nonsense, you do not need religion to get people to fight a war. Both World Wars had nothing to do with religion, what about Veitnam, North Korea, the American War of independance, The French Revolution, The Trojan wars, The Falklands, The Cold War, The Russian Civil War, The Napoleanic Wars, The First Indochina War, The Soviat Wars in Afghanistan, The Chinese Civil War, The Spanish Civil War, The Mexican Revolution, The Boer War, The Romanian Revolution of 1989 etc? I could go on all day listing wars which had nothing to do with religion. Religion was not needed to get any of these people to fight. It was all about the politics, the land, the money in at least one case love and in some cases it was about freedom. So all of these things must be just as bad as religion sinse they are all causes of wars.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The jews have a violent history, and every time we have land of our own we tend to start as many wars as the rest.


Stop exagerating or at least provide more examples. You've only given two examples in a later post and one of them is debateble.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:I don't expect god to solve my every problem - I expect him to solve the big ones so I can worry about the smaller ones. Since in my opinion there are plenty of big problems around, I don't see how he's doing anything useful.


Well there is the problem. Who decides which are the big problems. G-d starts meddleing in some things and not others you'll get exactly the same complaints that you are making now. That he doesn't do enough.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: My imaginary friend is a great comfort to me, but he doesn't actually exist and I don't expect him to do anything. As far as I can see, god is the same as an imaginary friend that a lot of people believe in.


So you believe that your imaginary friend created you? I think you have that a bit backwards.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I don't have time to go into every other point atm, so I'll sum up:
If it makes u happy to believe in god, feel free. It makes me happy to believe that god doesn't exist.



Obviosly you're not happy that we believe in G-d or you would waste such effort trying to convince us how evil our religion is.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:the sun can stay in orbit on its own, and so can the rest of the laws of phisics. I don't suppose that it takes much effort for a ball to fall on the floor when you drop it, even if it did take effor tot lift it in the first place. What I'm trying to say is that the universe runs in inertia more or less - nothing that requires divine intervention has happened since the big bang (not including the bang itself, if you insist).


And where do thes laws of physics come from? What keeps them going. When you looks at somthing as complex and beautiful as the universe and all it mathematical precision I think its rather ludicrous to think its all here by accident.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Taking what the bible has to say into account, god was very active 4000 years ago and was meddling all over the place. Why doesn't he do it today?


He was not meddling all over the place, he was meddleing in the characters depicted in the Bibles lives, thats hardly the entire population of the planet. Most of the events are all o do with just one family. Who's to say he isn't still doing that. With 6 Billion people in the world do you realy think we'd notice.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: god supposedly helped the jews in egypt, when they needed him - why didn' he help the jews in WW2? were they less jewish? were they bad people? didn't they deserve help against an oppressor?
No - the answer is that either god didn't help them because he doesn't care, in which case i don't see why I should care for him, or he doesn't exist, in which case I already have an imaginary friend, I don't need another.


G-d did help them. We are still here despite the best efforts of the Nazis to wipe us out. And if you're comparing it to Egypt, well then why didn't G-d help them sooner, why all those years of slavery, what about all those people and first born babies murdered by the Egyptions. I don't know the reasons for that, but my theory is because we'd have probalbly learnt nothing from it.

We got our help against an opressor. Sure it wasn't as visible as what happened to the Egyptions, but does that matter? Hitler went mad and killed himself, the Nazi party was destroyed its key leaders put on trial and hung. We are still here and now we have our own country. I know that this is not good enough for you, but thats when you sound like that spoilt child again. "Its not enough. I want more!"

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Wars started by jews - I guess bombing innocent civilians in the occupied territories isn't war to you, so I'll give you another example - in 1982 we invaded lebanon. I'm still not sure what was the point, but it was definitly us doing the invading.


You said 'as many wars as the rest' all you've provided is two examples. And Wizz has agued both points fine already so I won't go into them. So come on lets see if you can match the list I gave above.
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Postby snibril » December 15th, 2005, 2:43 pm

Is there actually *any* point to this argument? No one's gonna give way here, you're all just airing views that are necessarily subjective. Seems like you're going round and round in circles...
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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 15th, 2005, 5:18 pm

You're right - I'm not really happy about religious people, but I can't really do anything about it so I try to ignore religion generally.
In this case I enjoy the debate, so I keep it coming. This morning I didn't have time to go into details ( had to go to university). Now I'm at a friend's house and still don't have time for a full one-on-one.

In general principle, I don't believe that god did anything on earth in the last 20 billion years, so anything you say about small miracles is not acceptable to me. I'm a great believer in randomness, and so things happen not because of design but because something has to happen somewhere. This includs the creation of the universe, which I explained earlier. It's not the universe that fits us, it's us that fit the universe.

I don't believe my imaginary friend created me, which is probably why I'm willing to talk to him. I wouldn't talk to someone that claimed they're my real parents except my actual parents (I'm not adopted). I do find recent descriptions of god a lot like an imaginary friend - "he's my friend and he is always there to listen, he cheers me up, he doesn't actually do anything". When you talk about little miracles, it reminds me of it even more.

Have to go now - will continue later with a list of jewish wars.
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Postby Findtherma » December 15th, 2005, 5:56 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You're right - I'm not really happy about religious people, but I can't really do anything about it so I try to ignore religion generally.


You don't seem to be ignoreing it. Realy I do not have a problem with you not believeing in G-d. I don't care if whether or not you keep Kosher or Shabbos, my girlfriend does neither and our relationship is fine. My only problem with you is that you seem to have a problem with me. Why? Why do you care if I believe in G-d or not. Does it make one bit of differance to your life that I do? Would you care if I believed in a six foot invisible rabbit called harvey? I doubt it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:In this case I enjoy the debate, so I keep it coming. This morning I didn't have time to go into details ( had to go to university). Now I'm at a friend's house and still don't have time for a full one-on-one.


Fair enough.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:In general principle, I don't believe that god did anything on earth in the last 20 billion years, so anything you say about small miracles is not acceptable to me. I'm a great believer in randomness, and so things happen not because of design but because something has to happen somewhere. This includs the creation of the universe, which I explained earlier. It's not the universe that fits us, it's us that fit the universe.


I know you believe this, you've stated it over and over again in differant ways throughout the thread. Both myself and Wizz have answered with our own beliefs. You say that you don't accept our points but have not given a reason why except to repeat what you have already told us, hense the going round in circles. You stated what you believe , we told you why we disagree with them, you said 'no you're wrong' then just stated the same beliefs again this is not a debate, its just contradition.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:I don't believe my imaginary friend created me, which is probably why I'm willing to talk to him.


That was only a joke you know. Although the reason as to why you are only willing to talk to someone who has not created you elludes me.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I wouldn't talk to someone that claimed they're my real parents except my actual parents (I'm not adopted).


I'm not sure what point you are making here. I'm not talking to someone who claims to be G-d, I'm talking to my actual G-d. He claimed nothing to me I decided based on all I've seen that he is G-d.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I do find recent descriptions of god a lot like an imaginary friend - "he's my friend and he is always there to listen, he cheers me up, he doesn't actually do anything". When you talk about little miracles, it reminds me of it even more.


Thats not my description of G-d. Stop puting word in my mouth. The fact that you call what I'm talking about 'little miracles' just reminds me of a small child saying it not enough. Again we've been through this all before, time for something new.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Have to go now - will continue later with a list of jewish wars.


Good luck.
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Postby Jami » December 15th, 2005, 6:47 pm

Aw man this thread is so long and boringly philosophical, cant we like speak about birds or something?
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Postby wizzard » December 15th, 2005, 8:28 pm

snibril wrote:Is there actually *any* point to this argument? No one's gonna give way here, you're all just airing views that are necessarily subjective. Seems like you're going round and round in circles...


Just curious to see where it'll lead really.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:In general principle, I don't believe that god did anything on earth in the last 20 billion years, so anything you say about small miracles is not acceptable to me.


I'm sorry - are you trying to say that because you don't believe I'm right, therefore I must be wrong? Just that that is how it is coming across and that isn't really an argument.

Also, I never said that miracles had to be small. I think it is a miracle that the US invaded Afganistan and Iraq - that's a pretty big thing from where I'm sitting. If you backtrack that, it goes back to George W Bush, who got into power after a rather bizarre technicality with the ballots. If that technicality hadn't happened, Al Gore would have got in. Al Gore is Jewish, and it would have been political suicide for him to attack Afganistan/Iraq because everyone would have said it was racially motivated, so he never would have done it. At election time though, most of the Jews were voting for him. Now, a lot of the same people are glad that GW got in instead.

I'd like to point out a couple of other things that are bothering me about your argument. You are coming across as very angry with G-d for not saving everyone in WW2, but you can't really be angry with someone you don't believe in. Another thing (in my role as an Admin trying to make sure this doesn't get out of hand) is that you keep phrasing things as though it only matters what you think about things - "anything you say about small miracles is not acceptable to me"... Maybe it is just the language problem, but I think "I don't see things that way" might be a... more polite way of putting it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I'm a great believer in randomness, and so things happen not because of design but because something has to happen somewhere. This includs the creation of the universe, which I explained earlier.


Okay, but where does the everywhere come from that the somewhere is within? Where does the system for generating the randomness come from? Yes - it is inherent in the universe - that's the way it works, but you haven't explained where the universe came from, what was here before or why it works that way.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I do find recent descriptions of god a lot like an imaginary friend - "he's my friend and he is always there to listen, he cheers me up, he doesn't actually do anything". When you talk about little miracles, it reminds me of it even more.


You are the only one who said he doesn't do anything. Have you seen the new series of Battlestar Galactica? The whole business with Number Six inside Boltar's head - the way she's always going on about "god" has made things happen, and the way it works out so you can't be sure what is going on. That's a pretty good metaphor.

Jami wrote:Aw man this thread is so long and boringly philosophical, cant we like speak about birds or something?


In another thread, if you like. Sorry, but if you don't like this one, no one is forcing you to read it. I'm afraid we can't manage 100% of threads to be interesting for 100% of the users.

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Postby Findtherma » December 15th, 2005, 8:38 pm

Jami wrote:Aw man this thread is so long and boringly philosophical, cant we like speak about birds or something?


Birds are evil?

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Postby Jami » December 15th, 2005, 9:20 pm

.......eone
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Postby Archaic Lobster » December 15th, 2005, 9:38 pm

Findtherma wrote:Birds are evil?

Took the words straight out of my mouth.

Oh, and I apologise for the typo in my last post, when I said 'Petty Blossom'. It wasn't supposed to be that.

All I'm saying is that religion is good because it gives people hope and, in the main, brings out the best in people. And that's why I can tolerate religion, and wouldn't dream of trying to change people's views. Besides, there is as much chance of them being right.
But it does bring out the worst in people, too. And while many wars have been for gain rather than religion -I won't dispute that- religion has played a role in wars. Not least the one going on right now.

But I suppose birds are evil, after all, Jami has a point.
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Postby Findtherma » December 15th, 2005, 10:04 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:
Findtherma wrote:Birds are evil?

Took the words straight out of my mouth.

Oh, and I apologise for the typo in my last post, when I said 'Petty Blossom'. It wasn't supposed to be that.

All I'm saying is that religion is good because it gives people hope and, in the main, brings out the best in people. And that's why I can tolerate religion, and wouldn't dream of trying to change people's views. Besides, there is as much chance of them being right.
But it does bring out the worst in people, too. And while many wars have been for gain rather than religion -I won't dispute that- religion has played a role in wars. Not least the one going on right now.

But I suppose birds are evil, after all, Jami has a point.


I agree with everything you've just said.

I won't dispute that religion has been used as an exuse for many wars, but I have pointed out several wars that have many other reasons and excuses this dosen't make any of those things or religion evil.

Thats all I've been trying to say to Pretty Blossom, who by her own admission does have a problem with people like me believing in G-d.

I'd just like to understand why that is.


And as for evil birds, I was once chased by an ostrich, now those are evil.

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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 16th, 2005, 1:01 pm

1)
And where do thes laws of physics come from? What keeps them going. When you looks at somthing as complex and beautiful as the universe and all it mathematical precision I think its rather ludicrous to think its all here by accident.

http://superstringtheory.com/
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_ss.html
it's a bit hard to follow, and there are a lot of complications, but basically this is what i mean when I say random universe. I don't follow the physics of it but I accept the conclusions. The reason that I accept physics over religion is that physics doesn't have a mind of its own. God is a sentient being by definition, and so makes choices. Being such a powerful being means that those choices affect all of us one way or another. The very idea that some big creature somewhere is sitting and deciding what to do with my life annoys me no end. The very idea that some creature somewhere thought that my poor grandmother from father's side has outlived her usefulness and so sent a flu virus to kill her, simply makes my blood boil. SHe was a good woman, and healthy and enjoying life, and then 3 days later she was dead. Exactly what part of the divine plan requires this offenceless sweet woman to die?
On my physical views of the world, she just caught a virus randomly and not a part of anything else. She just died because the doctors couldn't help her, and they couldn't becuase there isn't enough technology becuase of various factors, which are human and natural in source. It's part of life, and not something to be upset about, no more than I get upset about the rain outside or that owl that keeps waking me up in the middle of the night (it's quite a cute bird - I find it reassuring to hear it outside).

2) my actual problem with religion and religious people: it's not something I can articulate well. Logically I don't care one way or the other. Emotionally it upsets me. Since none of u guys live in israel, you have no idea how much troubles religions cause here. From no buses in saturday (I couldn't go to movies on my own before I got my driver's licece), to the release from the army religious people get (I did full time in a place that was far from paradise, and I survived - why do they get away with it?!), to jihads in my back yard (that last bombing in natanya is a direct result of religion, and I'm not in a stage to differentiate which one), or maybe the lack of pork products and their high prices around (I find pork delicious and want to eat it more often - does that make me a bad person?), or maybe the fact that it looks like religious people submit themselves to something else (get a backbone).
As u see, I have plenty of excuses - even though they don't actually qualify as good reasons. Still, as I don't believe in souls and stuff, I put great emphasis on the physical aspect of my existance, and anything that interfears with my pleasure needs a better reason to do so asaide from a "because god said so". Sure - I won't go and physically hurt anybody, nor will I support anything to cause just hurt, because they have as much righ to enjoy life as I do, but come on! who cares if I go to a movie theater on a saturday?!

3)
All I'm saying is that religion is good because it gives people hope and, in the main, brings out the best in people.

As far as I can see, only recent christianity does that. The rest of the religions are still trying to get the rest of the world to convert - islam with force in particular, and jewdaism has more or less given up on the idea (after being forced to by the christians). Still, it's illegal in israel to do missionary work unless you're an orthodox jew. Even the reforms have problems with their work. It's a bit sad, because some minor cults have very quiet and peaceful world view, and those should be allowed to spread. Sorry but I don't consider it to be "best of people" when those guys try to push a car bomb to a border-pass.

4)
Also, I never said that miracles had to be small. I think it is a miracle that the US invaded Afganistan and Iraq - that's a pretty big thing from where I'm sitting. If you backtrack that, it goes back to George W Bush, who got into power after a rather bizarre technicality with the ballots. If that technicality hadn't happened, Al Gore would have got in.

I know you think the iraqy war was necessary, but you're in a growing minority. No wepons of mass destructions were found, and a lot of people are dying there because the americans couldn't keep their cock in their pants. Aside from that, GWB started the war, and if i go looking for why, I'll find a myriad of reasonable excuses that don't involve god. One of those would be the 9-11 attack, with plenty of people dead. What you consider miracle is sure bloody, and the bodies keep adding up.
To my point - you say god moved the thoughts of people, or maybe a pebble or two, things that don't require a lot of power, but just knowledge of what things cause which other things. I thought you called it "small miracles", or maybe that's just how I call it. Whatever, it's a long way away from the column of fire that guided the hebrews away from the egyptians (J - this is how u spell it - if I have to correct your spelling I'd feel really confused). Do I want some huge columc of flames meddling in the world today? NO. Why do I bother? because my family could have used one in WW2. My grandmother could have used a healing miracle when she was a the hospital. My grandmother from my mother's side could use one too, even though she is still alive. She's over 80 years old, and her body is failing her. For what purpose? I don't know and don't want to find out. It's much more comforting to me to know that there's nothing anybody can do to help her, so she doesn't suffer needlessly.
Small miracles is changing a thought here and there for me. Given that I prefer physics and randomness, they really don't look like miracles to me.

5)
That was only a joke you know. Although the reason as to why you are only willing to talk to someone who has not created you elludes me.

I'm not sure what point you are making here. I'm not talking to someone who claims to be G-d, I'm talking to my actual G-d. He claimed nothing to me I decided based on all I've seen that he is G-d.

If somebody says they created me, I expect it to be one of 2 cases: a) not true and therefor a lie about a subject which is not something I tolerate lies about, in which case i won' talk to that person until he stops lieing and apologize; b) the truth, in which case I'd like to see some evidence. My parents have evidence that they created me (including, if I ask them, a blood test to prove it). Any other human can't claim this, and if god claims it, he'll have to bring some evidence. Until that occures, I think it's a lie and will not talk to whoever claimed it. In this case, whoever wrote the book of Genesis is long gone, so it doesn't really matter. If god comes up to me and say it himself, i'll ask for proof.

6) an interesting point has just occured to me regarding the book of Genesis. Most of the bible is a depiction of historical events laced with som pretty weird legends (from my point of view it is really weird to know that the sun and moon has stood still for the duration of a battle). I'll accept stuff like the existance of king David because they found this water-way in jerusalem that he presumably had built. Regarding the book of Genesis - as a non believer I find it extreamly unlikely to have ever happened. Angels and snakes and towers and floods and a woman turning to salt (what was that all about?!) - pretty farfetched, don't u think?
All we have on god being the creator is there, and I don't believe the world was created in 6 solar days. I actually met someone that asked me what kind of air was on earth before life evolved, as if the lack of oxigen was any kind of proof against the evolution theory. Sorry, people - what science can't explain now will be explained later, and the atmosphere on earth did change drastically over a few billion years. Saying that god did it all is the classic Deus Ex Machina, and no decent author uses that plot device anymore.

7) israely wars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_israel
I know you don't want me to drang the wars the jews were involved in from the bible's time, because frankly those were all out fault. :roll: Still, different times, different mentality, eh?
I submit the 1956 suetz war, the 1967 six days war, the 1982 Peace of the Galil war (which took us 20 years to finish), the first intifada of 1987 (don't give me the "terrorists started it" rutine - we were occupying their lands at the time), and last - the second intifada of 2000 (you really don't wave a red flag in front of a bull unless you want him to charge).
You say that the arabs were massing forces and we had to go and attack them. Sure, better to start the war at our own time than to get dragged into it like in 1973. Still, we fired the first shot, and so we started the war. I support my country, I really do - I think those actions were justified in the long run. BUT I will not call it "their fault" just because we were provoced. What are we? little kids saying "it's his fault"?! A war is a bad thing, which is sometimes necessary. You can't ignore it.
About bringing more examples - israel was only a country for 57 years - give it time.
About terrorist attacks and wars - I submit to you the history of the resistance movements of israel in the time before 1948:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaShomer
Go on - say something about jews not being terrorists - I dare you...

And before you start objecting to who's fault or responsibility this is - I am israeli, I live here, I know the history better than you do. I know very well what the british did in the 20s to 40s here, because grandmother from mother's side and aslo grandfather from mother's side were in the camps in Cyprus after the british put them there. I know the bad stuff in europ because my family has been there. I know what happened in israel because I know people that has been there and actually fought in those wars.
If you want to say that the arab nations are all around israel and threatening us, keep in mind that the british empire started the whole mess in the first place with that map in 1947.
I really don't want to get into a debate on the rights of israel to exist - I live here after all - but you guys have to understand that the history of israel is not a pale blue prayer shawl (in hebrew is טלית שכולה תכלת - it means something that is totally good and right). We came, we conquered, we terrorised, we fought. We won, so we get to write the history books.

8) Small problems, big problems - as always, it's a question of where do you put the line. There is definitly black and definitly white, and also many shades of gray in between. What is the limit after which god has to interfear? You brought the conquest of iraq as an example of god interfearing - I bring Hurrican Katherina as a case where he should have moved that thing off the coast. You bring the sun and the moon and the stars in orbit - i bring the ozon layer as a case where he could have done something - a commendment like "thou shall not ruin the earth for profit" would do. Small things for a god, huge and insurmountable obsticles for mankind. Excuse me while I value life of individuals while you can for the big cosmic things.

Last thing - I find the sheer randomness of the universe something beautiful and wonderful. If you feel you need to put something between u and the universe, feel free. I call it escapism, but what do I know.
Yasmin ;-)

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Postby wizzard » December 16th, 2005, 3:10 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:it's a bit hard to follow, and there are a lot of complications, but basically this is what i mean when I say random universe. I don't follow the physics of it but I accept the conclusions.


You do know that superstring theory hasn't been proven, and that they don't actually know what the theory behind that is? It doesn't really matter anyway for the purposes of this argument, because I've not got a problem with superstring theory. It doesn't conflict with anything I believe.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: The reason that I accept physics over religion


Why do you have to disregard physics in order to have religion? Physics is very important - it is the rules that govern the way the universe functions. You can't really deny physics.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: is that physics doesn't have a mind of its own.


That's not very logical. You prefer to believe physics because you hate G-d? Personally I believe that physics is a very important science which explains to us how the rules of the universe function and how we can use those rules to achieve greater things.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: God is a sentient being by definition, and so makes choices. Being such a powerful being means that those choices affect all of us one way or another. The very idea that some big creature somewhere is sitting and deciding what to do with my life annoys me no end.


How can it annoy you if you don't believe it? The way you are talking it sounds more like you do believe it, but you are very angry that things are that way, and you don't want to admit that you believe it. You are coming across as though you are angry with G-d for not making a perfect world.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: The very idea that some creature somewhere thought that my poor grandmother from father's side has outlived her usefulness and so sent a flu virus to kill her, simply makes my blood boil.


You are assuming that that was why it happened. You are the only one who is talking about "outliving her usefulness". No one else said that was the case.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: SHe was a good woman, and healthy and enjoying life, and then 3 days later she was dead. Exactly what part of the divine plan requires this offenceless sweet woman to die?


The world is an incredibly complex place - there's no way anyone can hope to understand that kind of thing. If I say "hello" to someone in the street I don't even know what effect that will have. For all I know it could save someone's life just by saying "hello" to them. How are you supposed to know what things would have been like if something hadn't happened? You're just guessing.


Pretty_Blossom wrote: On my physical views of the world, she just caught a virus randomly and not a part of anything else. She just died because the doctors couldn't help her, and they couldn't becuase there isn't enough technology becuase of various factors, which are human and natural in source.


Well, yeah, of course that's true - no one is denying that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: It's part of life, and not something to be upset about


It isn't something to be upset about when your grandmother dies?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: 2) my actual problem with religion and religious people: it's not something I can articulate well. Logically I don't care one way or the other. Emotionally it upsets me. Since none of u guys live in israel, you have no idea how much troubles religions cause here.


Some of us have spent some time in Israel and we've got a pretty good idea.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: From no buses in saturday (I couldn't go to movies on my own before I got my driver's licece),


That's a rather selfish way of looking at it - you don't like religion because you couldn't go to the cinema.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: to the release from the army religious people get


That isn't really for religious reasons. There's no religious law saying that they can't do their army service. There are quite a few religious people that do. The people you are talking about are just using it as an excuse.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: (I did full time in a place that was far from paradise, and I survived - why do they get away with it?!)


I don't know, but I agree that it isn't right.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: to jihads in my back yard (that last bombing in natanya is a direct result of religion, and I'm not in a stage to differentiate which one)


I'm hardly going to defend that. Especially because my parents were at that exact spot a week earlier.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: or maybe the lack of pork products and their high prices around


It wasn't that long ago you were arguing for vegetarianism!

Pretty_Blossom wrote: (I find pork delicious and want to eat it more often - does that make me a bad person?)


Yes, if you are Jewish.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: or maybe the fact that it looks like religious people submit themselves to something else (get a backbone).


huh?


Pretty_Blossom wrote: As u see, I have plenty of excuses - even though they don't actually qualify as good reasons.


So why bring them up?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Still, as I don't believe in souls and stuff, I put great emphasis on the physical aspect of my existance, and anything that interfears with my pleasure needs a better reason to do so asaide from a "because god said so". Sure - I won't go and physically hurt anybody, nor will I support anything to cause just hurt, because they have as much righ to enjoy life as I do, but come on! who cares if I go to a movie theater on a saturday?!


Yeah, and who cares if you take heroin? It doesn't hurt anyone else.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: 3)
All I'm saying is that religion is good because it gives people hope and, in the main, brings out the best in people.

As far as I can see, only recent christianity does that.


What?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: The rest of the religions are still trying to get the rest of the world to convert - islam with force in particular, and jewdaism has more or less given up on the idea (after being forced to by the christians).


Orthodox Judaism has never tried to convert people, or at least if it has it was very wrong. We've got a strong tradition of actually making it difficult to convert because it is a pretty serious decision. I can't speak for "reform judaism" or "conservative judaism", which as far as I'm concerned are not Judaism at all.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Still, it's illegal in israel to do missionary work unless you're an orthodox jew.


What do you call missionary work? It is against Orthodox Jewish law to try to convert someone.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Even the reforms have problems with their work. It's a bit sad, because some minor cults have very quiet and peaceful world view, and those should be allowed to spread. Sorry but I don't consider it to be "best of people" when those guys try to push a car bomb to a border-pass.


You always get some nutters.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: 4)
Also, I never said that miracles had to be small. I think it is a miracle that the US invaded Afganistan and Iraq - that's a pretty big thing from where I'm sitting. If you backtrack that, it goes back to George W Bush, who got into power after a rather bizarre technicality with the ballots. If that technicality hadn't happened, Al Gore would have got in.

I know you think the iraqy war was necessary, but you're in a growing minority.


I know, but that isn't going to change what I think is right.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: No wepons of mass destructions were found,


That's because they haven't tried across the border yet.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: and a lot of people are dying there because the americans couldn't keep their cock in their pants.


Yeah, but that's just American incompetence. You can't do much about that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Aside from that, GWB started the war, and if i go looking for why, I'll find a myriad of reasonable excuses that don't involve god. One of those would be the 9-11 attack, with plenty of people dead.


Yeah, but how did GW get in in the first place? That was a rather strange set of events.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: What you consider miracle is sure bloody, and the bodies keep adding up.


Yup. I'm not glad that people are dying out there, but I still think it was the right thing to do.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: To my point - you say god moved the thoughts of people, or maybe a pebble or two, things that don't require a lot of power, but just knowledge of what things cause which other things.


It isn't really a matter of power. G-d doesn't seem to want to do obvious miracles in this age, so it all has to stay covert.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I thought you called it "small miracles", or maybe that's just how I call it.


I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Whatever, it's a long way away from the column of fire that guided the hebrews away from the egyptians


Yeah, but we don't need that these days.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Do I want some huge columc of flames meddling in the world today? NO.


Sorry, but why does it matter what you want?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Why do I bother? because my family could have used one in WW2. My grandmother could have used a healing miracle when she was a the hospital. My grandmother from my mother's side could use one too, even though she is still alive. She's over 80 years old, and her body is failing her. For what purpose? I don't know and don't want to find out. It's much more comforting to me to know that there's nothing anybody can do to help her, so she doesn't suffer needlessly.


And why do you get to choose who gets miracles? You aren't omnipotent.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Small miracles is changing a thought here and there for me. Given that I prefer physics and randomness, they really don't look like miracles to me.


I don't understand why it has to be one or the other.


Pretty_Blossom wrote: 5) If somebody says they created me, I expect it to be one of 2 cases: a) not true and therefor a lie about a subject which is not something I tolerate lies about, in which case i won' talk to that person until he stops lieing and apologize; b) the truth, in which case I'd like to see some evidence. My parents have evidence that they created me (including, if I ask them, a blood test to prove it). Any other human can't claim this, and if god claims it, he'll have to bring some evidence. Until that occures, I think it's a lie and will not talk to whoever claimed it. In this case, whoever wrote the book of Genesis is long gone, so it doesn't really matter. If god comes up to me and say it himself, i'll ask for proof.


Yeah, but not everyone else sees things that way.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: 6) an interesting point has just occured to me regarding the book of Genesis. Most of the bible is a depiction of historical events laced with som pretty weird legends (from my point of view it is really weird to know that the sun and moon has stood still for the duration of a battle). I'll accept stuff like the existance of king David because they found this water-way in jerusalem that he presumably had built.


I find your skepticism curiously selective. I'm sure you could come up with some reason not to believe it if you really tried.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Regarding the book of Genesis - as a non believer I find it extreamly unlikely to have ever happened. Angels and snakes and towers and floods and a woman turning to salt (what was that all about?!) - pretty farfetched, don't u think?


Not really. It might not be the way things are these days, but so what?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: All we have on god being the creator is there, and I don't believe the world was created in 6 solar days.


You're assuming that a solar day was 24 of our current hours then, and that we are measuring this from the timeframe on Earth. If you allow for time dilation according to Einstein's Theory of Relativity from the universe expanding after the Big Bang, if you measure it from an external frame of reference, 24 hours externally could easily have been billions of years internally. That is a rather neat little theory that an Orthodox physicist-Rabbi proposed to explain how it might be possible for evolution to occur within 6 days. Of course, it is only a theory. It is equally possible that the universe popped into existence with all the frills including dinosaur fossils, Strata style.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I actually met someone that asked me what kind of air was on earth before life evolved, as if the lack of oxigen was any kind of proof against the evolution theory.


Well that's a rather stupid argument, but you can't take 1 person who doesn't know what they are talking about as a representative sample.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Sorry, people - what science can't explain now will be explained later, and the atmosphere on earth did change drastically over a few billion years.


Maybe.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Saying that god did it all is the classic Deus Ex Machina, and no decent author uses that plot device anymore.


What kind of an argument is that?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: 7) israely wars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_israel
I know you don't want me to drang the wars the jews were involved in from the bible's time, because frankly those were all out fault. :roll: Still, different times, different mentality, eh?


Brief history...
Popped out to Egypt, got enslaved.
Escaped about 400 years later, got chased by slavers.
Managed to escape slavers, who got drowned, to be attacked by Amalek.
After a long battle, managed to beat Amalek.
After getting lost for 40 years in the desert, finally made it home to find that squatters had moved in.
Had a few battles to evict the squatters.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I submit the 1956 suetz war


In 1952, Egyptian militia overthrew King Farouk, and formed a new government. The new Egyptian government started interfering with Israeli shipping around the Straits of Tiran, and also wouldn't allow the British and French access to the Suez Canal, which had been built by the French and partially bought out by the British. The British, French and Israelis all became involved.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: the 1967 six days war


The Syrians started shelling the Galilee and firing on Israeli agricultural vehicles. Egypt signed an alliance with Syria. Egypt blockaded Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran again.
President Nasser declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
Israel called upon Jordan numerous times to refrain from hostilities, but Army Commander-in-Chief General Sharif Zaid Ben Shaker warned in a press conference that "If Jordan does not join the war a civil war will erupt in Jordan".
It was all building up to 3 countries about to attack Israel, so they took a pre-emptive strike at Egypt. If they hadn't, maybe Israel wouldn't be there today.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:the 1982 Peace of the Galil war (which took us 20 years to finish)


I've already covered that, and I'd like to point out that rocket attacks have resumed in the Galil since Israel pulled out.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: the first intifada of 1987 (don't give me the "terrorists started it" rutine - we were occupying their lands at the time)


Well they did start it, and it isn't their land.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: and last - the second intifada of 2000 (you really don't wave a red flag in front of a bull unless you want him to charge).


Personally I blame things like the terrorist schoolbooks within the PA for that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: You say that the arabs were massing forces and we had to go and attack them. Sure, better to start the war at our own time than to get dragged into it like in 1973. Still, we fired the first shot, and so we started the war.


It was hardly the first shot - they kept making incursions before that!


Pretty_Blossom wrote: I support my country, I really do - I think those actions were justified in the long run. ... ... A war is a bad thing, which is sometimes necessary. You can't ignore it.


At last we agree on something!

Pretty_Blossom wrote: About terrorist attacks and wars - I submit to you the history of the resistance movements of israel in the time before 1948:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29


I never said that I agreed with all of that, and now you are trying to equate zionism with religion.



Those 2 were pretty much defense forces and watchmen!

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I know what happened in israel because I know people that has been there and actually fought in those wars.


What - and you think I don't? At my parents' wedding, most of their friends couldn't attend because they were fighting in the 6 day war. I've got loads of family in Israel.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:If you want to say that the arab nations are all around israel and threatening us, keep in mind that the british empire started the whole mess in the first place with that map in 1947.


That's just an excuse. The PLO's stated objective was always to "push the Jews back into the sea".

Pretty_Blossom wrote:8) Small problems, big problems - as always, it's a question of where do you put the line. There is definitly black and definitly white, and also many shades of gray in between. What is the limit after which god has to interfear? You brought the conquest of iraq as an example of god interfearing - I bring Hurrican Katherina as a case where he should have moved that thing off the coast.


I'm sure it hit New Orleans for very good reasons. I don't have a clue what they are.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You bring the sun and the moon and the stars in orbit - i bring the ozon layer as a case where he could have done something - a commendment like "thou shall not ruin the earth for profit" would do.


Scientists are still debating whether global warming is happening, and whether the hole in the ozone layer has always been there - http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/environ/ENV032.HTM. Besides - we are still here, aren't we?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Last thing - I find the sheer randomness of the universe something beautiful and wonderful. If you feel you need to put something between u and the universe, feel free. I call it escapism, but what do I know.


I'm not putting anything between me and the universe. As far as I'm concerned the universe is just a part of something even bigger and more infinite (if you'll excuse the expression), which is even more impressive.

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Postby Findtherma » December 16th, 2005, 3:22 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:1)
And where do thes laws of physics come from? What keeps them going. When you looks at somthing as complex and beautiful as the universe and all it mathematical precision I think its rather ludicrous to think its all here by accident.

http://superstringtheory.com/
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_ss.html
it's a bit hard to follow, and there are a lot of complications, but basically this is what i mean when I say random universe. I don't follow the physics of it but I accept the conclusions. The reason that I accept physics over religion is that physics doesn't have a mind of its own.


If you are going to quote one of my points then you should answer it. I asked you where did the physics come from, not what they were. You say that you accept physics over G-d, well I don't accept G-d over physics I accept them both. I believe that G-d created physics.

Oh and you probably wanted to use a better example than string theory. for one thing its actually 5 differant theories, all of which could be right and all of which disagree with each other. Although M theory did clear that up. But just looking at M theory and all it great ideas about 11 differant dimensions, Branes and paralel universes reinforces my belief in G-d.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:God is a sentient being by definition, and so makes choices. Being such a powerful being means that those choices affect all of us one way or another. The very idea that some big creature somewhere is sitting and deciding what to do with my life annoys me no end.


So basicaly you are anti authoritarian, and that why you don't believe in G-d. Fine I get that, but thats not what I've been asking. I told you that I don't care that you don't believe in G-d or why I just want to know why you have a problem with me believeing in him.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The very idea that some creature somewhere thought that my poor grandmother from father's side has outlived her usefulness and so sent a flu virus to kill her, simply makes my blood boil. SHe was a good woman, and healthy and enjoying life, and then 3 days later she was dead. Exactly what part of the divine plan requires this offenceless sweet woman to die?
On my physical views of the world, she just caught a virus randomly and not a part of anything else. She just died because the doctors couldn't help her, and they couldn't becuase there isn't enough technology becuase of various factors, which are human and natural in source. It's part of life, and not something to be upset about, no more than I get upset about the rain outside or that owl that keeps waking me up in the middle of the night (it's quite a cute bird - I find it reassuring to hear it outside).


The way you go on you'd think you're the only one these things happen to. My grandmother, my mother's mother, died recently. She died of brain cancer. Exactly one week later her daughter, my mother's sister died of the exact same thing. I don't go round blaming G-d. Everyone dies, whether its of old age or another reason, we all will die. Its sad when they are no longer with us, but I find it coforting that we will be reunited someday, and that will last forever. For me thats worth some suffering in this life. In the end I believe that life is merely the begining of our existence and a very short part of it, afterwards lasts forever.
I don't claim to know why g-d does things or what his plan is. I just know that its good.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:2) my actual problem with religion and religious people: it's not something I can articulate well. Logically I don't care one way or the other. Emotionally it upsets me. Since none of u guys live in israel, you have no idea how much troubles religions cause here. From no buses in saturday (I couldn't go to movies on my own before I got my driver's licece), to the release from the army religious people get (I did full time in a place that was far from paradise, and I survived - why do they get away with it?!), to jihads in my back yard (that last bombing in natanya is a direct result of religion, and I'm not in a stage to differentiate which one), or maybe the lack of pork products and their high prices around (I find pork delicious and want to eat it more often - does that make me a bad person?), or maybe the fact that it looks like religious people submit themselves to something else (get a backbone).


Liking pork does not make you a bad person. Wanting to rid the world of reilgion because you like pork makes you a shallow person. Who are you to tell me what to believe in just so you can go to the cinema on a Saturday? Its the oposite way round here in England, buses run on weakends and pork is readily available whilst Kosher meat is really expensive. All your problems with religious people can be solved by you just moving somewhere else. I'm sorry but just because you want to catch a bus on a Saturday does not make religion evil.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:As u see, I have plenty of excuses - even though they don't actually qualify as good reasons.


Yup thats right, not even remotely.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Still, as I don't believe in souls and stuff, I put great emphasis on the physical aspect of my existance, and anything that interfears with my pleasure needs a better reason to do so asaide from a "because god said so".


So basicaly you're a hedonist. Its all about you and no-one else.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Sure - I won't go and physically hurt anybody, nor will I support anything to cause just hurt, because they have as much righ to enjoy life as I do,


But you will emotionaly hurt them. Your beliefs haven't stoped you from fling insults around this thread.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: but come on! who cares if I go to a movie theater on a saturday?!


Not me. I already told you that. I'll put it in capitals now so you won't repeat it again. I DO NOT CARE THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN G-D. I DO NOT CARE THAT YOU DON'T KEEP HIS RULES. IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME IN THE SLIGHTEST. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO KEEP MAKING EXCUSES FOR WHY YOU DON'T KEEP SHABBOS< KOSHER ETC. I WANT A PROPER REASON NOT AN EXCUSE AS TO WHY YOU WANT ME TO STOP BELIEVEING IN G-D.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:
All I'm saying is that religion is good because it gives people hope and, in the main, brings out the best in people.

As far as I can see, only recent christianity does that. The rest of the religions are still trying to get the rest of the world to convert - islam with force in particular, and jewdaism has more or less given up on the idea (after being forced to by the christians). Still, it's illegal in israel to do missionary work unless you're an orthodox jew. Even the reforms have problems with their work. It's a bit sad, because some minor cults have very quiet and peaceful world view, and those should be allowed to spread. Sorry but I don't consider it to be "best of people" when those guys try to push a car bomb to a border-pass.


What the hell has missionary action got to do with giving people hope, and bringing out the best in people. In my experiance it has the exact oposite effect. Judaisim give me hope, and I'm not the only one. So what the hell are you talking about? And no its not the "the best of people" the push a car bomb anywhere, but you can hardly judge the whole of religion based on the crazy nutjobs that use it as an excuse to hurt people. Anything can be used as an excuse to hurt people I gave my examples before and you've not called any of them evil. So basicaly you have double standards.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:4)
Also, I never said that miracles had to be small. I think it is a miracle that the US invaded Afganistan and Iraq - that's a pretty big thing from where I'm sitting. If you backtrack that, it goes back to George W Bush, who got into power after a rather bizarre technicality with the ballots. If that technicality hadn't happened, Al Gore would have got in.

I know you think the iraqy war was necessary, but you're in a growing minority. No wepons of mass destructions were found, and a lot of people are dying there because the americans couldn't keep their cock in their pants. Aside from that, GWB started the war, and if i go looking for why, I'll find a myriad of reasonable excuses that don't involve god. One of those would be the 9-11 attack, with plenty of people dead. What you consider miracle is sure bloody, and the bodies keep adding up.


And if you had been following the news you would have seen that Iraq just had a major election. With a 90% turnout of voters. They have a democracy now, do you think any of this would have been possible if the war hadn't happened? You say that the bodies are adding up. What do you think was happening whilst Saddam ruled there? He was torturing and killing his own people. He was an evil man and should have been removed during the first Gulf War WMD or no WMD.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:To my point - you say god moved the thoughts of people, or maybe a pebble or two, things that don't require a lot of power, but just knowledge of what things cause which other things. I thought you called it "small miracles", or maybe that's just how I call it. Whatever, it's a long way away from the column of fire that guided the hebrews away from the egyptians


So? Whats your point? That you want G-d to be mor visable. I'm sure that if he was you would still find excuses and other reasons for columns of fire and so on. The ancient hebrews did and built themselves an idol to compensate. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: (J - this is how u spell it - if I have to correct your spelling I'd feel really confused).


Now this is just childish. Do I go pointing out all of your typos? I know that english is not you first language, but sometines when you type things out in a rush you don't have time to proof read everything.


Pretty_Blossom wrote: Do I want some huge columc of flames meddling in the world today? NO. Why do I bother? because my family could have used one in WW2. My grandmother could have used a healing miracle when she was a the hospital. My grandmother from my mother's side could use one too, even though she is still alive. She's over 80 years old, and her body is failing her. For what purpose? I don't know and don't want to find out. It's much more comforting to me to know that there's nothing anybody can do to help her, so she doesn't suffer needlessly.
Small miracles is changing a thought here and there for me. Given that I prefer physics and randomness, they really don't look like miracles to me.



I want, I want I want. I need, I need. There's that child again.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:5)
That was only a joke you know. Although the reason as to why you are only willing to talk to someone who has not created you elludes me.

I'm not sure what point you are making here. I'm not talking to someone who claims to be G-d, I'm talking to my actual G-d. He claimed nothing to me I decided based on all I've seen that he is G-d.

If somebody says they created me, I expect it to be one of 2 cases: a) not true and therefor a lie about a subject which is not something I tolerate lies about, in which case i won' talk to that person until he stops lieing and apologize; b) the truth, in which case I'd like to see some evidence. My parents have evidence that they created me (including, if I ask them, a blood test to prove it). Any other human can't claim this, and if god claims it, he'll have to bring some evidence. Until that occures, I think it's a lie and will not talk to whoever claimed it. In this case, whoever wrote the book of Genesis is long gone, so it doesn't really matter. If god comes up to me and say it himself, i'll ask for proof.


So? I already told you that G-d proved it to me. So where is your problem with me worshiping him?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:6) an interesting point has just occured to me regarding the book of Genesis. Most of the bible is a depiction of historical events laced with som pretty weird legends (from my point of view it is really weird to know that the sun and moon has stood still for the duration of a battle). I'll accept stuff like the existance of king David because they found this water-way in jerusalem that he presumably had built. Regarding the book of Genesis - as a non believer I find it extreamly unlikely to have ever happened. Angels and snakes and towers and floods and a woman turning to salt (what was that all about?!) - pretty farfetched, don't u think?
All we have on god being the creator is there, and I don't believe the world was created in 6 solar days. I actually met someone that asked me what kind of air was on earth before life evolved, as if the lack of oxigen was any kind of proof against the evolution theory. Sorry, people - what science can't explain now will be explained later, and the atmosphere on earth did change drastically over a few billion years. Saying that god did it all is the classic Deus Ex Machina, and no decent author uses that plot device anymore.


So you don't believe in G-d because you lack enough of an imagination to believe a woman turned into salt. Well I don't care I told you that already. Stop telling me why you dont believe in G-d and tell me why I should stop.


Shabbos is in ten minutes. I'll answer from point 7 and onwards after it goes out.

J
“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.” -Martin Luther King Jr
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