Define Evil.

This is the Evil Discussion Board. Not quasi-evil, not semi-evil, not the Diet Coke of evil. Only truly evil people may enter.

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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 16th, 2005, 4:51 pm

I'm selfish - I'm also a decent person because of it.
It's about respect to the body of people, and their comfort. I don't see anything wrong with it and I think that if more people would think the same, the world will be a better place. If some very intelligent people would stop wasting time building wepons and start worrying about comfier chairs, I'm sure we'd all be better off.
I'm sure there's plenty of suffering in the world, which only strengthen my point about the futility of it. I brought personal events of my life as examples to the rule, not as exeptions. I'd apreciate it if you don't tell me that my grandmother should suffer and die - it does not help your case and it upsets me.
I am an agnostic, not an atheist, for the reason that I can't disproove the existance of god. I do believe that it is a futile question because if there is a god he doesn't show it and doesn't interfear with my life.
Frankly the fact that something out there might help all those poor people and doesn't actually do it angers me. I can't understand why you guys accept it so calmly.
The more power and understanding you give your god, the more I think he is capable of solving all of the world's problems without a fuss, and by not doing it he's guilty of the crimes himself.

About missionaries in israel - check out the history of the ethiopian people in israel for a change - orthodox jews are forcing them to be orthodox just to come to israel. Is that fair to those unique people? I won't say anymore about it now because it's obious that you'll find some excuse for it being alright to force people to be jews in israel or something. It's just a point to consider.

Hurting emotions is less bad than hurting physically. I like in israel and am not orthodox. This makes me part of the majority. Why we suffer all those religious rules from the radicals is because of the bloody politicians. I feel resentment, and yes - it's because of the little stuff. I don't suppose you understand why traveling on a saturday is so important to me. just as I don't understand why god is so important to u. You call me petty, I think it's a valid point and a reason to be angry. lets agree to disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't care what makes people happy. I did mention some reasons why it does affect me what people like u believe. Emotional reasons are as good as any in this debate.

I'll finish commenting on this thread about this subject. I've said it all and you didn't really get it. It's ok - I don't really get you. I argued because I like to argue and not because I have something personal against you guys. I do have a bone to pick with jewdaism, but now I've picked it as much as I can here so I will stop.

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Postby Archaic Lobster » December 17th, 2005, 3:41 pm

Is there any way I can have 3-4 posts condenced a little?

Anyway, in my opinion, religion is not evil. It can be misinterpreted or twisted for the benefit of someone, but more or less every religion was created to help people. Right?
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Postby wizzard » December 17th, 2005, 8:23 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'm selfish - I'm also a decent person because of it.


I don't understand that logic.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:It's about respect to the body of people, and their comfort. I don't see anything wrong with it and I think that if more people would think the same, the world will be a better place. If some very intelligent people would stop wasting time building wepons and start worrying about comfier chairs, I'm sure we'd all be better off.


I think they tried that in America and the obesity levels tripled.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'm sure there's plenty of suffering in the world, which only strengthen my point about the futility of it.


Only if you only look at the suffering. There's plenty of good stuff too. Why do you have to be so fatalistic? You are almost sounding like Marvin the Paranoid Android.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I brought personal events of my life as examples to the rule, not as exeptions. I'd apreciate it if you don't tell me that my grandmother should suffer and die


Did anyone say that? I lost my grandfather a year and a half ago. He fell and hurt himself and had to be taken to hospital. Then he was fighting a horrible infection for over a week. He suffered terribly, but we are thankful to G-d for giving him over 99 years on this Earth.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I am an agnostic, not an atheist, for the reason that I can't disproove the existance of god. I do believe that it is a futile question because if there is a god he doesn't show it and doesn't interfear with my life.


Well, as far as I'm concerned, I believe G-d exists, and I've got a lot to be thankful for. I often think that if I died tomorrow (G-d forbid) then I'd still have a lot to be greatful for in my life. Anything on top of that is even more of a bonus.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Frankly the fact that something out there might help all those poor people and doesn't actually do it angers me. I can't understand why you guys accept it so calmly.


Because we don't try to pretend that G-d is just like a person and we can understand everything he does and doesn't do just like that. Everything has a reason, and we just don't understand it. We get a lot of good stuff out of life if we stop to appreciate how much worse things could be.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The more power and understanding you give your god, the more I think he is capable of solving all of the world's problems without a fuss, and by not doing it he's guilty of the crimes himself.


And what would be the point? With all the problems in the world solved, why bother to get out of work in the morning? What's the point in even existing? That's no challenge.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:About missionaries in israel - check out the history of the ethiopian people in israel for a change - orthodox jews are forcing them to be orthodox just to come to israel.


You're talking about Jews who have been cut off from the rest of the world for hundreds of years. Most of them are living it terrible conditions and they are pretty greatful to be taken away from it all and given new and better living conditions. Besides - they are already Jews, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Is that fair to those unique people?


Most of them seem pretty appreciative for it!

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I won't say anymore about it now because it's obious that you'll find some excuse for it being alright to force people to be jews in israel or something.


1) if I keep finding reasons for things, maybe it is because I'm right, and not that I'm making excuses up.
2) if they are already Jewish then it isn't forcing them to be, and it isn't missionary work.
3) why bring it up in the first place then?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Hurting emotions is less bad than hurting physically.


Not sure what this is referring to, but do you have any idea how much it damages a person if you hurt them emotionally? Psychological scars can last a lot longer than physical ones. There was a case here a few days ago of some poor girl who killed herself because of the horrible things the people at work kept saying to her.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I like in israel and am not orthodox. This makes me part of the majority.


At the moment.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Why we suffer all those religious rules from the radicals is because of the bloody politicians.


The same politicians who gave away a chunk of the country a few months ago against the wishes of the "radicals" (and who have left the people who lived there sitting in tiny hotel rooms - they are still there with no new houses and no compensation)? Don't paint it like the religious people have the politicians in their back pocket - it isn't all one sided at all, and would you rather they didn't have their democratic right to vote for what they wanted?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I feel resentment, and yes - it's because of the little stuff. I don't suppose you understand why traveling on a saturday is so important to me.


What - you think that just because we don't doesn't mean we don't want to? We give up a hell of a lot more than you do and we don't complain about it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:just as I don't understand why god is so important to u.


well, basically because I believe that: -
1) anything I do affects my life in the next world
2) anything I do affects my life and others in this world
3) G-d created us all
4) G-d affects my life on a day to day basis.

Especially at the moment I'm thanking him for something that is happening in my personal life every day. On a purely personal level, I see it as a miracle, and something that I prayed for coming out better than I ever dreamed possible, and even if it isn't a perfect situation, and even if it doesn't work out, I think I've got a lot to be greatful for even just for what has happened so far, and as far as I'm concerned, it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for G-d.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: You call me petty, I think it's a valid point and a reason to be angry.


Well, I'm sorry, but arguing that you don't like G-d because your life isn't perfect really does sound pretty childish and petty.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I suppose I shouldn't care what makes people happy. I did mention some reasons why it does affect me what people like u believe.


Things like people using religion as an excuse to not do army service are fair points, and I agree with you on that one, but I don't see that as a genuine religious argument - I see that as a bad excuse, and making bad excuses is hardly confined to religious topics. I'm afraid that I'm not very sympathetic about things like you not being able to get a bus on a Saturday.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'll finish commenting on this thread about this subject.


What - and give up so easily? Just when it was getting interesting?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I've said it all and you didn't really get it.


No, I think I get it perfectly, I just don't agree at all. I can see why you don't believe G-d does anything, and why you are angry at that. I can also see why you don't see the point in orthodoxy. I don't really think there's much I can say to persuade you, but I'd to at least carry on trying to have a go at getting you to see where we're coming from.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:It's ok - I don't really get you. I argued because I like to argue and not because I have something personal against you guys.


Okay, so why give up so soon?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I do have a bone to pick with jewdaism, but now I've picked it as much as I can here so I will stop.


Complaining that you can't get the bus on a Saturday is the best you've got?

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Postby wizzard » December 17th, 2005, 8:29 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:Is there any way I can have 3-4 posts condenced a little?


I don't really think so - we are getting into a lot of different arguments about details now and it is quite difficult.

Archaic Lobster wrote:Anyway, in my opinion, religion is not evil. It can be misinterpreted or twisted for the benefit of someone, but more or less every religion was created to help people. Right?


I'm not sure about scientology - I heard that was created as a bet, and I suspect that satanism wasn't really created to help people, but if you are talking about most of the mainstream stuff these days, I guess, probably yes.

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Postby Findtherma » December 17th, 2005, 10:05 pm

Ok, I'll now go from point 7 and onwards.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:7) israely wars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_israel
I know you don't want me to drang the wars the jews were involved in from the bible's time, because frankly those were all out fault. :roll: Still, different times, different mentality, eh?


Well since you claim that the bible is a work of fiction, it would be hypocritical for you to use it in your agument as historical fact.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I submit the 1956 suetz war, the 1967 six days war, the 1982 Peace of the Galil war (which took us 20 years to finish), the first intifada of 1987 (don't give me the "terrorists started it" rutine - we were occupying their lands at the time), and last - the second intifada of 2000 (you really don't wave a red flag in front of a bull unless you want him to charge).
You say that the arabs were massing forces and we had to go and attack them. Sure, better to start the war at our own time than to get dragged into it like in 1973. Still, we fired the first shot, and so we started the war. I support my country, I really do - I think those actions were justified in the long run. BUT I will not call it "their fault" just because we were provoced. What are we? little kids saying "it's his fault"?! A war is a bad thing, which is sometimes necessary. You can't ignore it.
About bringing more examples - israel was only a country for 57 years - give it time.
About terrorist attacks and wars - I submit to you the history of the resistance movements of israel in the time before 1948:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaShomer
Go on - say something about jews not being terrorists - I dare you...


I asked for a list that matched mine. My list contained 15 wars, whilst yours only contains 9, all of which wizz has provided reasonable arguments for.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:And before you start objecting to who's fault or responsibility this is - I am israeli, I live here, I know the history better than you do. I know very well what the british did in the 20s to 40s here, because grandmother from mother's side and aslo grandfather from mother's side were in the camps in Cyprus after the british put them there. I know the bad stuff in europ because my family has been there. I know what happened in israel because I know people that has been there and actually fought in those wars.


Please don't act like you know all about me. You don't. For all you know I could be an historian that knows all the history inside out. I'm not, but I'm not completely ignorant. I also had family who fought in those wars, and my family origonaly came from europe.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:If you want to say that the arab nations are all around israel and threatening us, keep in mind that the british empire started the whole mess in the first place with that map in 1947.


And how is that religions fault?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:8) Small problems, big problems - as always, it's a question of where do you put the line. There is definitly black and definitly white, and also many shades of gray in between. What is the limit after which god has to interfear?


Thats my point. Once he starts interfereing visibly in anything, we won't be happy when he doesn't with something else.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You brought the conquest of iraq as an example of god interfearing - I bring Hurrican Katherina as a case where he should have moved that thing off the coast.


I can think of many reasons for why Katrina happened, all of which may offend people, so I won't say them here.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You bring the sun and the moon and the stars in orbit - i bring the ozon layer as a case where he could have done something - a commendment like "thou shall not ruin the earth for profit" would do. Small things for a god, huge and insurmountable obsticles for mankind. Excuse me while I value life of individuals while you can for the big cosmic things.


The Ozone layer is our own bloody fault, why should G-d have to fix all of our own blundering errors?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Last thing - I find the sheer randomness of the universe something beautiful and wonderful. If you feel you need to put something between u and the universe, feel free. I call it escapism, but what do I know.


You find it beautiful and wonderful that we are the equivalent of cosmic vomit? Ok, to each his/her own.

Ok, now onto your next post.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'm selfish - I'm also a decent person because of it.


I'm sorry, but if you think that being selfish make you a decent person, then you are even more misguided than I though.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'm sure there's plenty of suffering in the world, which only strengthen my point about the futility of it. I brought personal events of my life as examples to the rule, not as exeptions.


What rule? That religion is evil because you want a bacon sandwich?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'd apreciate it if you don't tell me that my grandmother should suffer and die - it does not help your case and it upsets me.


I never said that, and would never say that. Please don't put words in my mouth.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:I am an agnostic, not an atheist, for the reason that I can't disproove the existance of god. I do believe that it is a futile question because if there is a god he doesn't show it and doesn't interfear with my life.


well he has interfered in mine. I've staed this several times throughout the thread and you've not even asked me how, you've just seemed to ignore those points. Not that I'd tell you anyway.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Frankly the fact that something out there might help all those poor people and doesn't actually do it angers me. I can't understand why you guys accept it so calmly.


Thaen you've not been reading my posts properly. I told you exactly why I accept it. Just because those reasons don't work for you does not cahnge the fact that they are my reasons. Just like I know your reasons for not believing in G-d.

Do you get this yet? I understand why you don't believe in G-d. I don't understand why you care that I do.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The more power and understanding you give your god, the more I think he is capable of solving all of the world's problems without a fuss, and by not doing it he's guilty of the crimes himself.


:sigh: This has been covered a hundred times on this thread, I'm not doing it again.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:About missionaries in israel - check out the history of the ethiopian people in israel for a change - orthodox jews are forcing them to be orthodox just to come to israel. Is that fair to those unique people? I won't say anymore about it now because it's obious that you'll find some excuse for it being alright to force people to be jews in israel or something. It's just a point to consider.


I still don't know why you even brought up missionaries when you did. Come on, answer my questions when I ask them please.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:Hurting emotions is less bad than hurting physically.


This is a whole differant arguement, but I completely refute this claim.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I like in israel and am not orthodox. This makes me part of the majority.


So? The majority aren't always right.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Why we suffer all those religious rules from the radicals is because of the bloody politicians.


So your problem should be with the polotitians of your country, not with me.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I feel resentment, and yes - it's because of the little stuff.


As I've said already, your problem can be solved by moveing.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I don't suppose you understand why traveling on a saturday is so important to me.


Please stop assuming that you know all about me. When you make staements like this you come across as very arrogant.

I have only been keeping Shabbos and kosher for about 4 or 5 years. I used to travel, go to cinema etc on a Saturday all the time. It was very important to me. I enjoyed haveing fun, going out with my friends and eating at Pizza Hut with girlfriend. I found something more important and I've sacrificed all of that. I've sacrificed alot for my religion. My family don't entirely understand why I'm doing this, but they've been very supportive. I'm an actor, and my career is extremly dificult to persue under normal circumstances, but the fact that I am unable to work on a Saturday has added all kinds of complications.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:just as I don't understand why god is so important to u.


You would if you had more of an open mind. I don't mean for you to sudenly agree with me, I mean to see where I'm coming from.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: You call me petty, I think it's a valid point and a reason to be angry.


Yes, because when you call me evil because you can't have a bacon sandwhich then thats petty.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:lets agree to disagree.


Why? Giving up already?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I suppose I shouldn't care what makes people happy. I did mention some reasons why it does affect me what people like u believe. Emotional reasons are as good as any in this debate.


Sure they are. But you didn't give any, you gave hedonistic and selfish reasons.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'll finish commenting on this thread about this subject. I've said it all and you didn't really get it. It's ok - I don't really get you. I argued because I like to argue and not because I have something personal against you guys.


Awwe, but you haven't even answered half of my questions yet. You've still not told me whats wrong with me believeing in G-d.

I do take it personally when someone calls me evil just because I believe in something that they don't.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I do have a bone to pick with jewdaism, but now I've picked it as much as I can here so I will stop.


Leaving so soon?
Pretty_Blossom wrote:get a backbone


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Postby Findtherma » December 17th, 2005, 10:09 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:Is there any way I can have 3-4 posts condenced a little?


Most of them are Pretty Blossom repeating all the same argument over and over again. If you've read any of the previous posts then you already know the contents of these ones.

Archaic Lobster wrote:Anyway, in my opinion, religion is not evil. It can be misinterpreted or twisted for the benefit of someone, but more or less every religion was created to help people. Right?


I completely agree with you here.

wizzard wrote:I'm not sure about scientology - I heard that was created as a bet, and I suspect that satanism wasn't really created to help people, but if you are talking about most of the mainstream stuff these days, I guess, probably yes.


I wouldn't call those religions. Those are cults.

And with that last sentence I'm sure I've started a whole new argument. :wink:

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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 17th, 2005, 10:36 pm

If you insist...

1) I'm selfish and it makes me a better person: I think that I'm important. Since I'm capable of logical thoughts, that means that anything that is built along the same lines as me is also important. I've decided that a nervous system is a pretty good definition (whether it's working or not - I will not get dragged into an argument on whether cripples are human too). Since human beings in general have a nervous system, that makes human beings in general the same as me, and thus important too. If they're important, they shouldn't go through anything that will make them miserable. SInce this is the real world and it's hard to do something without upsetting someone else, I settle for the lesser evil and lesser hurting of others. All this is from the simple fact that I'm important.

2) comfier chairs was an example. Might as well be a new way to travel to the moon, which is something I'd liek to do some day, and is a good idea in general.

3)
Only if you only look at the suffering. There's plenty of good stuff too. Why do you have to be so fatalistic? You are almost sounding like Marvin the Paranoid Android.

I look at all the nice things in the world when it suits my poit, and when I'm not arguing about what a bad world this is. If I went "life is a marvel - such details to make a thumb work" it wouldn't really help my case, would it?
I do like this world, at least enough to not want to leave it. My life is pretty decent considering, but last week there were a family of 2 siblings and a mother that drove their car to a railroad track and sat in it waiting for the train to hit them. After that didn't kill them, they jumped off an electric post thingy (one of the tall metal ones). Why did they commit suicide in such a wonderful world?

4)
I often think that if I died tomorrow (G-d forbid) then I'd still have a lot to be greatful for in my life. Anything on top of that is even more of a bonus.

I don't belive in souls or afterlife - i think that when we die, there's nothing left. That's why life is so precious - because it's unique and never to be repeated. So by my mind, after you die you will not be thankful - you just will not be. I always wondered why people who say they believe in paradise don't go and kill themselves right now to get there sooner. Of course, some do kill themselves to get there sooner, and catholics have a thing against taking your own life, but the majority don't. I guess they don't want to get to heaven too soon.

5)
Because we don't try to pretend that G-d is just like a person and we can understand everything he does and doesn't do just like that.

Ineffable is not an excuse - god doesn't even make an effort to explain. Would it kill god to record a message explaining a few things and make sure people who want it, will get it?!
Sorry, but my own simple logic demands that someone with that much control will explain himself to me.
Physics are so much simpler - randomness is a reason you can't really dispute.

6)
And what would be the point? With all the problems in the world solved, why bother to get out of work in the morning? What's the point in even existing? That's no challenge.

What kinds of chalanges do you prefer to face: how to get this cute girl to go out with you, or how to open a door when you have no hands?
Just examples, and I really don't want to get into what is a big chalange and what is a small chalange. I'll just say that I can find chalanges for myself that don't require anybody getting hurt or killed over them.

7) regarding the ethiopians - you really have no clue, do you? They are jews according to their own standards, and to get into israel they have to go through Giur - being made a jew, and only by orthodox laws, not by reform laws. They aren't considered jews by the orthodox, and they give them a lot of problems over it. You should come and talk to them (the older generation - the one that got brought to israel and wasn't born here). You'll change your mind then. Of course, the conditions they were living in in ethiopia were worse, but that's no excuse - they didn't know it was worse until a bunch of white people came and told them how much better things are over here.

3) why bring it up in the first place then?

I did say it was a point for thought - I'd apreciate it if you read my post all the way through before commenting.

8 )
Pretty_Blossom wrote:
I live in israel and am not orthodox. This makes me part of the majority.


At the moment.

Doubtful - aside from the fact that SOME orthodox people breed like rabbits, there is as much people going from religious to non religious as there are the other way around, and with the immigration from russia and the growing arab population, it will be a long while before I'm a minority.

9)
The same politicians who gave away a chunk of the country a few months ago against the wishes of the "radicals" (and who have left the people who lived there sitting in tiny hotel rooms - they are still there with no new houses and no compensation)? Don't paint it like the religious people have the politicians in their back pocket - it isn't all one sided at all, and would you rather they didn't have their democratic right to vote for what they wanted?

Don't go there - it's over and can't be changed.
The housing problem of the settlers is not just the goverment's fault - they took too long to evacuate. Besides, it was a bloody mess to get them out of there, do you have any idea how much it costs to mobilise so many soldiers and cops to move poeple that can actually get up and walk on their own?! Regardless of why it was done, it was a bad thing they did - not going on their own.
About who has who in their back pocets - some things have to be done, like the evacuation of the occupied lands. In order to avoid political suicide, the mighty leaders will ask the support of the religios parties,a nd in return will give them some concents and laws that they demand. Life is tough in israeli politics - it's not a simple thing to tell who's really in charge.
I know that some things get tackled down because of the religious parties - the number one subject is the constitution (we don't have one, we want it, we can't get all of the ministers to agree on it). Sure - power is flexible - one day this side is winning, and the next - that side. The general trend is to religious parties.
You're going to say something about it being the will of the people, but I disagree - the religious parties are very orgenized - the rabbie tells them go and vote for X, they do it. The sechular parties are in troubles - half the youngsters think it's a good political statement to not vote at all. Right now the political situation is in favore of the primeminister Sharon - exactly because he evacuated the occupied lands. Poeple are mostly hoping he'll do it again. Isn't it weird how only the right-wing parties can manage to actually sign a peace-accord? It's not that they give less than the left parties, believe me.

10)
What - you think that just because we don't doesn't mean we don't want to? We give up a hell of a lot more than you do and we don't complain about it.

If i start a diet and give up sweets and stuff because I want to, it won't make me half as miserable as someone coming and taking away my sweets. If I choose not to do things on a saturday, it's not the same as being forced to stay put because I can't take the bus. If I was smoking, will you let people sell sigarettes to me even if you thought it was bad?
The moral dilemas of what a person needs or wants are not that simple. I prefer to have a choice on SOME matters, while on others I will accept limitations from the outside. Buses on saturday is one of the formers, while drugs are one of the latters. I don't know about you, but i'm intelligent enough to distinguish between the 2.

11)
well, basically because I believe that: -
1) anything I do affects my life in the next world
2) anything I do affects my life and others in this world
3) G-d created us all
4) G-d affects my life on a day to day basis.


If only I had your conviction, life would be simpler. I don't believe in the afterlife, I don't believe in 3 and 4 either. 2 is given to interpertations.

12)
Well, I'm sorry, but arguing that you don't like G-d because your life isn't perfect really does sound pretty childish and petty.

It's not petty - it's good enough for me. I don't ask for perfection, I ask for easier problems. Why? see argument 1. i enjoy my comfort and think that other people should enjoy theirs too. There's this cult that believe that they can get closer to god by self torture. I never could figure them out.

13)
Complaining that you can't get the bus on a Saturday is the best you've got?

1) the lack of constitution in israel
2) the fact that being religious is an excuse out of things in israel, the army in particular
3) no non-kosher foods with reasonable prices
4) the fact that israelies were offered land in other places without as many angry arabs around, and those got turned down because too many people thought this is the only land for us
5) a huge shipment of parts that are so big they block the road was supposed to be moved on a saturday to avoid blocking traffic, but that got torpeadoed by the religious parties. this caused a lot of people to be very late for work when they finally did it.
6) those ugly skirts the girls have to walk in even during winter. Fassion is one thing - freezing your legs off is another. (no, I'm not wearing those myself, but I did hear a few friends complain about it)
7) "ברוך שלא עשאני אישה" and similar sentiments - the boys can't control themselves so the girls should pay for it? does that make any sense to you?
8 ) occupied land in the name of god - now there's a war we could do without.
9) murdering in the name of god - did you know that Rabin got a pulsa denura on his head before he got assassinated? Amir claimed he had aprovement from rabbies, and considering the newspapers' headline before the assassination I know what he means
10) having too many kids, not working and demanding money from the goverment for studying tora all day. The country can only support so much deadbeats around, but they're multiplying and they don't even pay taxes
11) This insistance of SOME people that I deserve less than them just because I'm not a believer (luckily no-one here thinks like that)
12) the need to defend my country in chats against people who think ll jews are monsters because of what we do in the occupied lands, and I don't even agree that bombing civilians is an acceptable course of action to stop terrorism
13) the general lack of proof that religions in genral suffer from - I try to be a logical person, this is driving me mad somrtimes. Not a real reason, but really - would finding god in person really such a bad idea?

some of those reasons are silly (3 and 6 are pretty pathetic), but most are pretty good reasons and while it's as much a thing against the people who do those things and not the religion itself, they claim to be inspired by religion, so who am I to argue.

It's way after midnight and I have to get up early tomorrow morning, so I'll sign off now.
Yasmin ;-)

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Postby Findtherma » December 17th, 2005, 11:00 pm

I couldn't help but notice that you have ignored all of my posts, and not answered any of my points.

And in all of your points to Wizz you are just repeating what you have already said numerous times before. So, you don't believe in the afterlife. Me and Wizz do. You not believeing in a concept does not make what we believe in evil.

Come on answer my points. Or are you unable to?

J
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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 17th, 2005, 11:03 pm

J - because appearantly we were responding at the same time I didn't get your post until after I posted mine.
I'll stop assuming I know what you're about, and if it makes you happy to sacrifice things to god - feel free to do so.
Just don't ask me to sacrifice things too to something I havn't seen.
You did state that you have reason to believe in god, but you have yet to bring it up either. Maybe you know your proof won't be acceptable to me, and maybe it's something personal that you don't want to share, but don't tell me you brought it up because I'd notice if something that was enough to satisfy me was presented. I do read all the posts and I do make an effort. It's not easy to articulate points in a language that is not my native language and it is very hard to get across points to people who don't live where I am and don't expirience the same things.
Do you know why Saul Mofaz is doing such damage to the Kadima party? do you know why people don't want Pnina Rozenblum in the Kneset? Do you know why the Shinui party got to be the 3rd biggest party last elections? or why they are now dropping back to the little parties?
I hope you do, so we could argue israeli politics a little more, but I fear you don't, simply because you're not here. It's the same with me and british politics - I'm not there, I don't know.
I also don't know what it's like to live in a place where people pick on me just for being a jew. It's one of those things that I don't know about and don't really want to find out.
I'm not going to move away from my home - don't suggest it again, please. I don't know what you would do if someone said you have to pack up and leave to another country just because, but I'd be upset and I will fight for my right to live in my home the way that I want to.
Yasmin ;-)

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Postby Findtherma » December 17th, 2005, 11:27 pm

Pretty_Blossom wrote:J - because appearantly we were responding at the same time I didn't get your post until after I posted mine.


Ok, sorry about that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'll stop assuming I know what you're about, and if it makes you happy to sacrifice things to god - feel free to do so.
Just don't ask me to sacrifice things too to something I havn't seen.


I'm not asking you to do anything, I am just defending my beliefs, which you claim causes wars. I have not attacked any one because of my beliefs, and I don't make anybody do anything they don't want to. If you have a problem with the laws in Israel, vote for a differant party don't blame it on people like me who are just trying to find their place in the universe.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You did state that you have reason to believe in god, but you have yet to bring it up either. Maybe you know your proof won't be acceptable to me, and maybe it's something personal that you don't want to share, but don't tell me you brought it up because I'd notice if something that was enough to satisfy me was presented.


I won't bring up the exact details because they are extremely personal to me, and I don't wnat them planted all over the internet. All I will say is it completely changed my life, for the better.

I did not state it as proof for you to sudenly decide that there was a G-d. I stated it as the reason why I believe in G-d. That should have been good enough for any logical person.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I do read all the posts and I do make an effort. It's not easy to articulate points in a language that is not my native language and it is very hard to get across points to people who don't live where I am and don't expirience the same things.


I do have family in Israel, and they don't see things the way you do. And they are not religous and don't keep shabbos. Please try and rember that yours is not the only point of veiw in Israel.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Do you know why Saul Mofaz is doing such damage to the Kadima party? do you know why people don't want Pnina Rozenblum in the Kneset? Do you know why the Shinui party got to be the 3rd biggest party last elections? or why they are now dropping back to the little parties?
I hope you do, so we could argue israeli politics a little more, but I fear you don't, simply because you're not here. It's the same with me and british politics - I'm not there, I don't know.


I actually know less about British polotics than I do about Israeli polotics. we do get nespapers here, and what is happening in Israel is very important to us.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:I also don't know what it's like to live in a place where people pick on me just for being a jew. It's one of those things that I don't know about and don't really want to find out.


I wouldn't wish that type of hatred on anyone, but I do think that if you had experianced it you would be more guarded with what you say against religous people.

You know I have the exact oposite problems that you have. My teachers tried to kick me out of university because I keep Shabbos. Its very dificult for me to get a job in my chosen profession and Kosher meat costs a fortune. So for all the reasons you gave for resenting religous people I could give the exact same reasons for resenting atheists and agnostics. Except that I don't resent them.


Pretty_Blossom wrote:I'm not going to move away from my home - don't suggest it again, please.


I didn't actually meen for you to leave Israel. But looking back it does read that way, so I apologise. What I meant was, that all the problems that you say religion has caused you only happen in Israel.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I don't know what you would do if someone said you have to pack up and leave to another country just because, but I'd be upset and I will fight for my right to live in my home the way that I want to.


Actually my parents, my sisters and myself did pack our bags and left the country where we didn't agree with the polotics and the laws. I'm originaly South African and we left South Africa while there still was an Arparteiht(probably spelt wrong). So you see, I wasn't sugesting anything that I wouldn't do myself.

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Postby wizzard » December 18th, 2005, 1:17 am

Pretty_Blossom wrote:1) I'm selfish and it makes me a better person: I think that I'm important.


Why?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Since I'm capable of logical thoughts, that means that anything that is built along the same lines as me is also important. I've decided that a nervous system is a pretty good definition (whether it's working or not - I will not get dragged into an argument on whether cripples are human too). Since human beings in general have a nervous system, that makes human beings in general the same as me, and thus important too.


How do you know that anyone else wandering around out there isn't just a figment of your imagination, or just a body programmed to react in certain ways to stimuli?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:If they're important, they shouldn't go through anything that will make them miserable.


Why not? Even then, you can't seriously believe that you can shield everyone from all misery?

Pretty_Blossom wrote: SInce this is the real world and it's hard to do something without upsetting someone else, I settle for the lesser evil and lesser hurting of others.


Well in that case leave the orthodox to keep what they want - they'll get a lot more upset about not being able to.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: All this is from the simple fact that I'm important.


Yes, but you are also assuming that other people all think the same way you do, and feel the same way you do, which is not necessarily a valid assumption.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:2) comfier chairs was an example. Might as well be a new way to travel to the moon, which is something I'd liek to do some day, and is a good idea in general.


Well I think that would be a total waste of money and be needlessly dangerous, therefore we shouldn't think about it because it upsets me and according to your logic it upsets everyone else, and we should avoid it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:3) I look at all the nice things in the world when it suits my poit, and when I'm not arguing about what a bad world this is. If I went "life is a marvel - such details to make a thumb work" it wouldn't really help my case, would it?


Not really, but you can at least admit that I have a point sometimes and that you see it. At least that way I won't have to keep repeating it because I don't think you've got it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I do like this world, at least enough to not want to leave it. My life is pretty decent considering, but last week there were a family of 2 siblings and a mother that drove their car to a railroad track and sat in it waiting for the train to hit them. After that didn't kill them, they jumped off an electric post thingy (one of the tall metal ones). Why did they commit suicide in such a wonderful world?


Because they went through a pretty bad patch probably. Everyone does at some point.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:4) I don't belive in souls or afterlife - i think that when we die, there's nothing left.


Yup, I know. I don't know how you carry on from day to day like that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: That's why life is so precious - because it's unique and never to be repeated. So by my mind, after you die you will not be thankful - you just will not be. I always wondered why people who say they believe in paradise don't go and kill themselves right now to get there sooner.


Maybe because there's a lot of good stuff we can do here first. I'm greatful for every nanosecond I get on this Earth, but when my time is up, at least I've got somewhere else to go.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Of course, some do kill themselves to get there sooner, and catholics have a thing against taking your own life, but the majority don't. I guess they don't want to get to heaven too soon.


Either that or maybe we just believe that this world is also important.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:5)
Because we don't try to pretend that G-d is just like a person and we can understand everything he does and doesn't do just like that.

Ineffable is not an excuse - god doesn't even make an effort to explain.


Why should He?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Would it kill god to record a message explaining a few things and make sure people who want it, will get it?!


Yeah, but then you wouldn't really have the choice whether to believe in G-d or not. Another option is trusting that G-d knows what He is doing and has our best interests at heart, which takes a lot of faith, especially when the world isn't a perfect place and there are a lot of things to challenge us, but that's kind of the point in life the way I see it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Sorry, but my own simple logic demands that someone with that much control will explain himself to me.


Good luck with that one. I don't see it happening.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Physics are so much simpler - randomness is a reason you can't really dispute.


And who says simple is always best? The String Theory scientists certainly don't seem to hold by that theory.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:6)
And what would be the point? With all the problems in the world solved, why bother to get out of work in the morning? What's the point in even existing? That's no challenge.

What kinds of chalanges do you prefer to face: how to get this cute girl to go out with you, or how to open a door when you have no hands?


I'm sure that if, G-d forbid, I end up in the situation where I have to open a door with no hands, I'll manage to solve it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Just examples, and I really don't want to get into what is a big chalange and what is a small chalange. I'll just say that I can find chalanges for myself that don't require anybody getting hurt or killed over them.


And I'm sure that if the world was reduced to that level you'd still be complaining that G-d wasn't helping you with them.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:7) regarding the ethiopians - you really have no clue, do you?


Actually I do.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:They are jews according to their own standards, and to get into israel they have to go through Giur - being made a jew, and only by orthodox laws, not by reform laws.


That's because "reform" isn't Jewish.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: They aren't considered jews by the orthodox,


Actually they are for some purposes, but they have to convert because it can't actually be proven. I did know about that, and we actually had a girl living with us on and off for about 7 years while she was trying to convert here, even though her mum was Jewish, she just couldn't prove it. It is more of a failsafe than anything else. Kind of like how some countries require you to take a driving test even though you've passed one in another.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:and they give them a lot of problems over it.


Well, converting isn't supposed to be easy.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You should come and talk to them (the older generation - the one that got brought to israel and wasn't born here). You'll change your mind then.


No I won't. There are good reasons why they can't just wave them all through and declare them Jewish.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Of course, the conditions they were living in in ethiopia were worse, but that's no excuse - they didn't know it was worse until a bunch of white people came and told them how much better things are over here.


Oh, so you'd rather leave them to die of dehydration and malnutrition?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:
3) why bring it up in the first place then?

I did say it was a point for thought - I'd apreciate it if you read my post all the way through before commenting.


I didn't see the relevancy or what your point was.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:8 )
Pretty_Blossom wrote:
I live in israel and am not orthodox. This makes me part of the majority.


At the moment.

Doubtful - aside from the fact that SOME orthodox people breed like rabbits, there is as much people going from religious to non religious as there are the other way around, and with the immigration from russia and the growing arab population, it will be a long while before I'm a minority.


And you think the majority is always right? I wonder if you'd have thought that in Germany in 1940?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:9)
The same politicians who gave away a chunk of the country a few months ago against the wishes of the "radicals" (and who have left the people who lived there sitting in tiny hotel rooms - they are still there with no new houses and no compensation)? Don't paint it like the religious people have the politicians in their back pocket - it isn't all one sided at all, and would you rather they didn't have their democratic right to vote for what they wanted?

Don't go there - it's over and can't be changed.


It isn't over yet by a long way - now there are rockets being fired at Ashkelon regularly because of that.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The housing problem of the settlers is not just the goverment's fault - they took too long to evacuate.


Fine, you want me to play one of your cards? You don't know what you are talking about. My sister's parents-in-law were in Neve Dekalim, and most of the people there left well before the army started escorting them from their homes. Those people had already been moved once because they used to live in Yamit, which was in the Sinai, which the government had already given up years ago. The government promised them caravans when they evacuated Neve Dekalim, and when they got to the caravan sites, they found that the keys were useless because there were no caravans there. The government has dumped the entire town in hotels that were well below their standards of living beforehand, hasn't given them any compensation, and their lives are all up in the air because they don't know what they are doing or where they can go. Most of them are still paying mortgages on houses that they don't own anymore, and a lot of them have lost their jobs, because they worked there, so they are paying money they can't afford in a lot of cases. The government didn't discriminate between people who left willingly or not - they are all in the same mess.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Besides, it was a bloody mess to get them out of there, do you have any idea how much it costs to mobilise so many soldiers and cops to move poeple that can actually get up and walk on their own?!


Well they shouldn't have given it up anyway. It has only made things worse.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Regardless of why it was done, it was a bad thing they did - not going on their own.


I'd like to see you leave your house so easily under those circumstances.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:About who has who in their back pocets - some things have to be done, like the evacuation of the occupied lands.


Well that's where we get into another mess, isn't it? Because most of the Arabs in the "occupied lands" are actually refugees from other Arab countries.

Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, not from "palestine", but Jordan isn't demanding it back. Palestine was actually a name put in place by the Romans - a name based on "philistine" as an attack against the Jews of the time in the year 70, but the real Philistines had been extinct well before that. After that, the land was ruled by Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and then by the British after World War 1.

The British decided that the land would be used for the Jewish people as a homeland, but the Arabs objected, because they wouldn't accept that the Jews have a right to have a homeland, despite the fact that Israel is about 0.1 percent of the land mass of the Middle East.

The "palestinians" have no distinct language or culture - they are just the same as one of the neighbouring countries - Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. As Arafat said in 1994 in a speech in South Africa "First we create our own state, then we use that state to liberate all of Palestine. That's the goal. It's always been the goal."

Here's some more quotes for you from Arabs to explain how they are just refugees...

Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948. wrote:The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem.


The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949 wrote:The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.


The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951 wrote:Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.


I could carry on, but I think I made the point.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: In order to avoid political suicide, the mighty leaders will ask the support of the religios parties,a nd in return will give them some concents and laws that they demand. Life is tough in israeli politics - it's not a simple thing to tell who's really in charge.


No, but that's a lot closer to a true democracy than places like here where there really isn't much choice in who you vote for. Ironic, really, considering that no one in Israel has ever been able to get people to agree to things for long enough to hammer out a constitution.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:I know that some things get tackled down because of the religious parties - the number one subject is the constitution (we don't have one, we want it, we can't get all of the ministers to agree on it).


Funny - I was just saying that :)

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Sure - power is flexible - one day this side is winning, and the next - that side. The general trend is to religious parties.


From where you are sitting, maybe. I wish it looked like that from here.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:You're going to say something about it being the will of the people, but I disagree - the religious parties are very orgenized - the rabbie tells them go and vote for X, they do it.


Well, that's because X supports what means is important to them.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The sechular parties are in troubles - half the youngsters think it's a good political statement to not vote at all.


So basically what you are saying is that the religious are properly democratic, and the secular aren't? I think that's a plus for religion.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Right now the political situation is in favore of the primeminister Sharon - exactly because he evacuated the occupied lands. Poeple are mostly hoping he'll do it again.


Even though rockets are being fired at Ashkelon? Shame people are so shortsighted.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Isn't it weird how only the right-wing parties can manage to actually sign a peace-accord? It's not that they give less than the left parties, believe me.


Yeah, because when the chips are down they still give into political pressure and don't do the right thing.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:10)
What - you think that just because we don't doesn't mean we don't want to? We give up a hell of a lot more than you do and we don't complain about it.

If i start a diet and give up sweets and stuff because I want to, it won't make me half as miserable as someone coming and taking away my sweets. If I choose not to do things on a saturday, it's not the same as being forced to stay put because I can't take the bus. If I was smoking, will you let people sell sigarettes to me even if you thought it was bad?


Not if I could enforce a ban.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:The moral dilemas of what a person needs or wants are not that simple. I prefer to have a choice on SOME matters, while on others I will accept limitations from the outside. Buses on saturday is one of the formers, while drugs are one of the latters. I don't know about you, but i'm intelligent enough to distinguish between the 2.


Funny how many people think that. Especially the people who didn't know how dangerous smoking was for years, and the people who are addicted to various things.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:11)
well, basically because I believe that: -
1) anything I do affects my life in the next world
2) anything I do affects my life and others in this world
3) G-d created us all
4) G-d affects my life on a day to day basis.


If only I had your conviction, life would be simpler.


Much:)

Pretty_Blossom wrote: I don't believe in the afterlife, I don't believe in 3 and 4 either. 2 is given to interpertations.


I know, but you understand where I'm coming from?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:12)
Well, I'm sorry, but arguing that you don't like G-d because your life isn't perfect really does sound pretty childish and petty.

It's not petty - it's good enough for me. I don't ask for perfection, I ask for easier problems.


And if you had them they'd seem like major problems and you'd ask for easier ones again.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:Why? see argument 1. i enjoy my comfort and think that other people should enjoy theirs too.


That's all very well, but that is really a luxury, and it is hardly a major thing to ask someone to forgo a luxury for something that someone else thinks is very important.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:13)
Complaining that you can't get the bus on a Saturday is the best you've got?

1) the lack of constitution in israel


And that is the fault of religion?

Pretty_Blossom wrote:2) the fact that being religious is an excuse out of things in israel, the army in particular


That's annoying, but you are talking about people who will always find an excuse.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:3) no non-kosher foods with reasonable prices


Supply and demand.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:4) the fact that israelies were offered land in other places without as many angry arabs around, and those got turned down because too many people thought this is the only land for us


As far as I remember, the second option was somewhere in what was, at the time, the Belgian Congo. I think that the country in question was caught in the crossfire from a major war and there was a lot of bloodshed there. Not much point in saying things would be better if we were somewhere else. If you like the idea so much, move there. Besides - I do believe that it is our land.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:5) a huge shipment of parts that are so big they block the road was supposed to be moved on a saturday to avoid blocking traffic, but that got torpeadoed by the religious parties. this caused a lot of people to be very late for work when they finally did it.
6) those ugly skirts the girls have to walk in even during winter. Fassion is one thing - freezing your legs off is another. (no, I'm not wearing those myself, but I did hear a few friends complain about it)


Relatively minor inconveniences.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:7) "ברוך שלא עשאני אישה" and similar sentiments -


Well I don't want to sound sexist, but I'm glad I'm not a girl.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: the boys can't control themselves so the girls should pay for it? does that make any sense to you?


Well, in my experience girls actually do have a lot more control over themselves than guys. That's just the way we're wired.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:8 ) occupied land in the name of god - now there's a war we could do without.


Not occupied land. See above.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:9) murdering in the name of god - did you know that Rabin got a pulsa denura on his head before he got assassinated?


Yeah, and I don't approve. Always one or two.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:10) having too many kids, not working and demanding money from the goverment for studying tora all day. The country can only support so much deadbeats around, but they're multiplying and they don't even pay taxes


Yeah, well I don't agree with learning all day and claiming benefits for it. If they want to do that then they should get private sponsors.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:11) This insistance of SOME people that I deserve less than them just because I'm not a believer (luckily no-one here thinks like that)


That's people being idiots again. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:12) the need to defend my country in chats against people who think ll jews are monsters because of what we do in the occupied lands,


well, it is nothing compared to what the Arabs do to each other, and I don't see what that has to do with religion.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: and I don't even agree that bombing civilians is an acceptable course of action to stop terrorism


Well, if they are sheltering terrorists then it is pretty difficult to know what to do. I'd tend to go with it because you can't let terrorists keep getting away with it.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:13) the general lack of proof that religions in genral suffer from - I try to be a logical person, this is driving me mad somrtimes.


Well, I think I've got pretty good reason for believing what I do.

Pretty_Blossom wrote: Not a real reason, but really - would finding god in person really such a bad idea?


Sorry - I don't understand the question.

Pretty_Blossom wrote:some of those reasons are silly (3 and 6 are pretty pathetic), but most are pretty good reasons and while it's as much a thing against the people who do those things and not the religion itself, they claim to be inspired by religion, so who am I to argue.


You don't really seem to have a problem arguing ;)

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Postby Pretty_Blossom » December 18th, 2005, 10:41 am

1) religious wars - sorry but I thought we were talking about jewish starting it. Otherwise I have a larger selection to offer: the crusades, the jihads, and that pesky little clensing the hebrews did when they got to the promised land after the enslavement in egypt. BTW - I never claimed the whole of the bible is fictional, just the book of Genesis. The rest has some sort of historical basis, given the fact that it was written by the winners, and there are no losers to tell the tale. Oh, well - could have been worse - they could have still been around to this day, claiming first right on israel too.

2) I'm fine not sending anybody tot he gas-chambers, and I don't feel a big enough resentment not to be friends. You might say I find orthodox jews to have easier life in israel and I evny them. It's not that I resent you personally, or jewdaism over the other religions in particular. It's an argument, and I feel that bringing up how the islam is hot-headed and forceful about everybody converting to it, or christianity believing the jews killed jesus and thus are the spawn of evil, while helping my general case, not convincing to you because you are not islamic or christians.
i go after jewdaism because you defend it, and because it's the nearer subject. Don't take it personal.

3) re: ethiopians - "they are jews but they still need to convert" do you know how that sounds?! If someone is a jew, he doesn't need to be converted anymore, and if he is not, he should be able to choose what he wants. The fact that many of those people think it's necessary to do anything with their own beliefs (which for some reason you are not defending as muc as you're defending your own - don't be hypocrites), so they could stay alive, that I don't like. The same resources we're investing bringing them here we can invest building stuff there - hospitals and agricaltural base and stuff like that are much better than anything else.
I look at the russian immigration and i see them keeping their costumes, while the ethiopians are forced to change, and it upsets me. WHy are the russians more jewish than the ethiopians and why is it that the orthodox feel it necessary to change them?
No I won't. There are good reasons why they can't just wave them all through and declare them Jewish.

Do tell.

4) convertion shouldn't be easy? why? it's easy enough for islam - all you have to do is say a line 3 times in front of witnesses, and you're a muslim. Christians have a baptism ceramony - having a bath is not that hard. Jews have brit mila - ok - a little blood isn't so bad compared to what they had to do in the past (I don' believe in Genesis, but I always found the story of Dina entertaining). Why all the change of costumes? They were jews to begin with, weren't they?

5)
Pretty_Blossom wrote:
1) I'm selfish and it makes me a better person: I think that I'm important.


Why?

Martin - I did ask that you read all the way through before commenting.
To the point - I have no idea if I'm a brain in a jar dreaming of being a girl, and if anything around me is real or not. It may very well be the case, but I wouldn't get very far if I go around shouting at everybody - I'm the only real person in the world, do what I say! - would I.
I'm important to me. if someone pricks me, it hurts, and I'll stay away or prick back, depending on mood and chances of success. I feel things, and since no other point of reference exit, they are important things to feel.
Everybody keeps telling me that all humans want the same basic things - to live in safety. Fine - I can relate - this is what I want, and it's a nice thing to want. If other humans wanted to die, they'd find ways of killing themselves. I assume that if they're still alive, they don't want to die, and that means they want to live too. OK - not killing anybody is a smart move then.
I don't like pain, I like to not expirience it too much. If I hit people they don't like it either. Conclusion - they don't like pain either. No hitting people - easy.
Some people I have not met, but I find it hard to believe they like the pain - basicly most of human-kind wants to live without somebody coming and hurting them. NOw I hit the snag - war is so common and so many people die in it that they might as well be enjoying it. Has to be another reason for them to want to kill each other. possessiveness? sure, why not - that's mine and I won't give it way, and if you take it I'll fight you. I understand. then I look around and wonder - what is it that those people actually get from fighting? Around here it's land, but they say it's not about the land. Why are they trying to kill me if they have other places to go? because their leaders tell them to? Why do they listen? religion is something that comes up a lot in the discussion of whether or not we should stay or leave. Maybe this religion thingy is what makes them fight?
Seems logical - maybe not the only reason, but part of it, certainly. They stand there and quote the bible to show they have a right to this place or that. They don't bring any recent points, just this book of theirs.
Logically, religion is a big part of this war I'm in, and I find it hard to look at other wars because I'm not in them.
logic is not much of a help here, but it's all I've got.

6)
you can't seriously believe that you can shield everyone from all misery?

Do you see me trying? I'm not in a posision to do so, but this god creature of yours sound pretty strong and powerful - possibly he is in a possision to shild people from their misery. Why doesn't he do it, then? logic demands that he either doesn't exist or doesn't want to, because you state that he can. Either options are enough for me to not worship him.

7)
Well in that case leave the orthodox to keep what they want - they'll get a lot more upset about not being able to.

Fine with me - do what thou wilt and all. No, wait - this bothers me, this means I don't get what I want. :x Dillema - who gets to enjoy more?
Larger number of people enjoying sounds better to me, as long as no gas-chambers are involved. This place where I live doesn't keep shabbat - except a few settlments, but they close their gate when they don't want to be disturbed. Sounds like a good solution to me - I don't want to get into your part of town, I just want to move around in my area. Compromise?
They won't have it. They seem to think I should stay put too. Annoying and illogical. Go figure.

8 )
Well in that case leave the orthodox to keep what they want - they'll get a lot more upset about not being able to.

it's the only assumption I can make, since I only know what I think. I can't become someone else and I don't see why other people don't want some basic things. they might not want to - I hear there're people out there enjoying pain and suffering. <shudder> it's an alian thought.

9)
Well I think that would be a total waste of money and be needlessly dangerous, therefore we shouldn't think about it because it upsets me and according to your logic it upsets everyone else, and we should avoid it.

How about exploring the sea's bottom? or the highest peaks? How about exploring the edible propertes of sea-weed before we run out of real food?
Is killing each other so important to you that you'd rather have people invest only in that?

10)
Not really, but you can at least admit that I have a point sometimes and that you see it. At least that way I won't have to keep repeating it because I don't think you've got it.

I admit - i enjoy my life. You can stop repeating it now.
I state that not all things happen for the best, which you don't seem to agree. hurrikan katherina had some good points, did it? :roll:
There's always a bright side, if you look hard enough, but there's also always a dark side, and frankly it's a lot easier to spot.

11)
Because they went through a pretty bad patch probably. Everyone does at some point.

Those 3 won't ever get out of the bad patch - they're dead. No, wait - i think the mother survived. Won't she be happy when she wakes up...
Considering that this world is what they have, I don't understand why anybody'd want to leave. I value life and consider reasons to end it... not evil, because stuff happens, but not good either, because it's taking something unique and wonderful, and finishing it.

12)
I don't know how you carry on from day to day like that.

Because when I die, I will be no more, and I do want to be. It's actually more logical than your reason to go on.

13)
Maybe because there's a lot of good stuff we can do here first. I'm greatful for every nanosecond I get on this Earth, but when my time is up, at least I've got somewhere else to go.

If it comforts you, go for it. i still think it's a dengerous aproach. Those suicide bombers think they go to heaven when they die. They'd think twice if they knew they'd just stop existing.

14)
Yeah, but then you wouldn't really have the choice whether to believe in G-d or not. Another option is trusting that G-d knows what He is doing and has our best interests at heart, which takes a lot of faith, especially when the world isn't a perfect place and there are a lot of things to challenge us, but that's kind of the point in life the way I see it.

Choices are overrated. i don't trust people to handle my life, why should i trust god? Considering the mess he might get me into, I'd rather trust myself. You should try reading a comic series called Preacher. They have a very crooked view of god - you won't like it at all, but it's good for you to be exposed to different ideas (as long as they don't involve a real cudgel - that's not ideas).

15)
And who says simple is always best?

Ocham's razor states that the simplest explanation is the best. What's simple and what's complicated is another matter. You'd say that "god did it all" is simpler than "randomness did it all", but not for me.

16)
And I'm sure that if the world was reduced to that level you'd still be complaining that G-d wasn't helping you with them.

You're assuming I can't tell the difference between big and small problems. Sorry - I'm busy worrying about life that I don't have time for silly rituals (no offence - all religions have those).

17) don't want to get into the "rights on israel" argument right now - try to stick tot he point and not to get dragged into every example I bring in details. I know this one's not something we can agree on. I think that you're a right-winged radical on this matter and your points are based on this book of yours more than on real life. Fact - arabs were in israel until the turn of the last century, when we kicked them out. Fact - the last jewish state in this area was 2000 years ago. Get over it. Fact - nobody else seems to want those people, they might as well get a place of their own. Reminds you of someone? <coughing jews prior 1948>

18)
So basically what you are saying is that the religious are properly democratic, and the secular aren't? I think that's a plus for religion.

No - this is not democracy when you do what you're told. It's a democracy when you read all of the parties' intent papers or whatever they're called, and decide for yourself what you want to vote for. "Because the rabbie told me" is not a democratic reason.

19)
Even though rockets are being fired at Ashkelon? Shame people are so shortsighted.

You're even more shortsighted - they will stop as soon as they run out of reasons, and if they won't, we'll have the moral high-ground and every right to go in there and kick their butts. It's a strategic move and you seem to miss its point.

20)
Yeah, because when the chips are down they still give into political pressure and don't do the right thing.

Or maybe they know that the poeple want peace and they have the power to give it to them. I do miss the old politicians with some integrity - Begin was a good man, even though he made some mistakes.

21)
Not if I could enforce a ban.

So much for live and let live. And here I thought you were tolerating other points of views. All this time it was because you just don't have the means to do anything about it. :wink:
I will not make sigarettes illegal, although I might make life for smokers harder, but then again, I didn't ever claim otherwise. Tolerance goes both ways.

22)
Funny how many people think that. Especially the people who didn't know how dangerous smoking was for years, and the people who are addicted to various things.

I'm all for information being distributed - I'm just against brain-washing.
Explain the pros and cons of a subject so people can make up their own minds. I want full information on the consequences of my actions, so I can make better choices. Oh, no - you don't believe in that either. :roll:

23)
I know, but you understand where I'm coming from?

Not sure - you're saying that because god created you, and is playing around with your life, you're worshipping him?
No, I guess not - this is just me not likeing the idea again. I suppose you feel differently about it. Maybe you think of god as your father or something. Then it's ok what he's doing to you. Sorry - I've seen some very abusing families in the papers, and I don't think that father knows best.

24)
And if you had them they'd seem like major problems and you'd ask for easier ones again.

Maybe, maybe not. I would like the chance to find out.

25)
That's all very well, but that is really a luxury, and it is hardly a major thing to ask someone to forgo a luxury for something that someone else thinks is very important.

Depends - if you stated that your religion demands that I be miserable, I might have considered it. as it is, you say that I'm not relevant to your religion and any inconvenience to me is accidental - I say try harder to keep that down. How important is it to you that I don't travel on a saturday? Be honest.

26)
1) the lack of constitution in israel


And that is the fault of religion?

why yes it is - it's the religious parties that make th emost noise against. there was even a format suggested that got shot down because of them. There are foundation laws in israel that are supposed to be the basis of the constitution. One of them is the "freedom of occupation" law. one of the clauses in it allows people to raise pigs in israel. There's another law against it. That law was deemed unjust by the high-corts of israel, but they gave the state some time to remove it. the deadline passed 2 so far and that unjust law is still around. Guess why...

27)
That's annoying, but you are talking about people who will always find an excuse.

Don't see why I should help them find one - don' give them that option and block the next one and the one after that. See who cracks first.

28)
Supply and demand.
High demand, low supply - I wonder why that is...

29)
As far as I remember, the second option was somewhere in what was, at the time, the Belgian Congo. I think that the country in question was caught in the crossfire from a major war and there was a lot of bloodshed there. Not much point in saying things would be better if we were somewhere else. If you like the idea so much, move there. Besides - I do believe that it is our land.

Don't think so - it was somewhere in africa, but it was a clear land as far as I remember my history lessons. As usual, religious reasons made sure we won't find out.
i won't move anywhere because I happen to like it where I live. nobody's trying to move me either. If somebody demanded that I move and started shooting at me, I might consider moving just not to get shot at.
Life is full of tough choices - this is one of them.

30)
Relatively minor inconveniences.

The skirt, probably, that piece of machinery dragging across the roads - that is a major problem, especially since the driver wasn't even jewish. It has been done on saturdays before, but this time this minister decided to pull rank. It was a big issue, and it was not minor in any way.

31)
Well, in my experience girls actually do have a lot more control over themselves than guys. That's just the way we're wired.

Sure - we're better - punish us for it. Why not make the boys wear covers on their faces so they won't see us? Besides, I think that anybody can learn control if they are forced to. It's a matter of social norms. Fact - plenty of girls walk around half naked where I live, and they don't get raped even though there are plenty of boys around. it's just not done. If a guy can't keep it together, he should be punished, not the girls.

32)
Not occupied land. See above.

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html don't look at the writing - just the maps. that is what things are today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Earl ... -Judea.png this is how things were back in the bible's time. You can't really claim the borders should stay the same after all of that time, and if they don't stay the same, we should give back land that we don't have a majority in.

33)
Yeah, and I don't approve. Always one or two.

It was a bit more than that, but I know you don't condon it so I won't insist.

34)
That's people being idiots again. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on it.

You're right. Still - religion is the topic of the moment, not the idiocy of mankind in general.

35)
well, it is nothing compared to what the Arabs do to each other, and I don't see what that has to do with religion.

It's not religion, it's the need to defend it. I'm patriotic - I like israel and want it to be a good country to live in, and I also want people to think well of it. The fact that I don't agree with what is actually going on here makes it hard for me - it's like a friend doing bad things - you know he should stop, but he is your friend.

36)
Well, if they are sheltering terrorists then it is pretty difficult to know what to do. I'd tend to go with it because you can't let terrorists keep getting away with it.

I don't agree, and I think it only makes things worse - this way we anger people who still don't have an opinion. There was this guy on the news going "I didn't care - i have work and family to take care of, and then my son got killed by israeli forces and now I'm angry and want revenge". Can't blame him.

37)
Well, I think I've got pretty good reason for believing what I do.

I know you think so. It still surprises me every time to know people find excuses to do the weirdest things. I wonder what you'd do if there was a rule in your religion about you having to walk on your hands every alternate day. would you?

38)
would finding god in person really such a bad idea?


Sorry - I don't understand the question.

I want to go and talk to this god of yours. Why shouldn't I?
I want to know that god exist rather than believe. Why shouldn't I?
This is the question.

39)
You don't really seem to have a problem arguing

I would if I ever run face to face with them. I did when I was at Gesher camp (building bridges between believers and non-believers). I argue a lot and I havn't changed my mind yet.

40)
I'm not asking you to do anything, I am just defending my beliefs, which you claim causes wars. I have not attacked any one because of my beliefs, and I don't make anybody do anything they don't want to. If you have a problem with the laws in Israel, vote for a differant party don't blame it on people like me who are just trying to find their place in the universe.

I don't blame you personally. You're a pretty decent guy, and I'm glad I know you. I do vote for a different party, and it helps as much as it can help. Beyond that, all i have left is complaining because frankly, nobody around here cares much.

41)
I won't bring up the exact details because they are extremely personal to me, and I don't wnat them planted all over the internet. All I will say is it completely changed my life, for the better.

I did not state it as proof for you to sudenly decide that there was a G-d. I stated it as the reason why I believe in G-d. That should have been good enough for any logical person.

fair enough - I won't ask for details. It does NOT make it logical, however. I must assume that people are capable of anything from halucinating to downright lying, and while I don't think you do, it's still not logical proof.

42)
You know I have the exact oposite problems that you have. My teachers tried to kick me out of university because I keep Shabbos. Its very dificult for me to get a job in my chosen profession and Kosher meat costs a fortune. So for all the reasons you gave for resenting religous people I could give the exact same reasons for resenting atheists and agnostics. Except that I don't resent them.
:lol: ain't life weird? you want to come here and I want to be there, except neither of us realy wants to move because if we did - we would have. maybe some day i will move to the USA or something, where it's easier for me to have fun. Still, while I'm here, I don't see a reason not to complain. I am a klafte , from a long line of klaftes.

I think that about covers all of it. Considering it took me 2 hours to compleate 42 clauses, you'd better apreciate that I'm debating seriously. I do keep out of some subjects because i doubd we'll ever agree on those, but other than that - I try to present my views with as much clarity as I can. Please read all of it before responding.
Yasmin ;-)

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