holiday.

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holiday.

Postby Lars Gimletscousin » June 22nd, 2006, 12:14 pm

I'm having a holiday in israel.. really enjoying it.. having such a good time.. anyhow, i'm sitting in the 'central bus station' in jerusalem in an internet cafe, using the internet there,, whilst using the internet my sister in-law (younger brothers wife..) came in with her daughter.. so I'm holding MY NIECE WHILST USING THE COMPUTER. anyhow,, gtg.. laters all.. behave :D
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Postby llamedos » June 23rd, 2006, 9:53 pm

is jerusdalem in israel i thought it was part of what remains of palestine or have i got this all wrong
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Postby Archaic Lobster » June 24th, 2006, 11:32 am

Jerusalem is half n' half, isn't it? Like what they did to Berlin...
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Postby wizzard » June 24th, 2006, 11:06 pm

You are getting into a lot of politics there. Jerusalem is definitely in Israel, and is in fact the capital city, although the "palestinians" consider it theirs. The reasons that I put "palestinian" in inverted commas is because the people who call themselves "palestinian" are mostly not actually from the British mandate of Palestine, but use the name to attempt to lay claim to parts of Israel.

For more details, I suggest you look at some of Joseph Farah's articles on WorldNetDaily

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Postby llamedos » June 25th, 2006, 8:13 pm

pretty caetain that i read somewhere that the jewish people stole paletine away from the arabs who had a vast majority of the population of the then palestine then theres also something about the un ruling which designated quite alot of israel/palestine as arabic whisch the israelie government then went onto dissobey and take over larger and larger parts of the west bank and gaza strip with a strongly percieved intention to take over jerusalem
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Postby wizzard » June 25th, 2006, 10:33 pm

That is an extremely biased viewpoint.

Basically, the area which is currently Israel, the "palestinian territories" and Jordan used to be a British Mandate after WW1. The British were given control over it after it used to belong to the Ottoman Empire.

In June 1922, the League of Nations passed the Palestine Mandate, which amongst other things, included "secur[ing] the establishment of the Jewish national home". The area was segmented into "Palestine" and "Transjordan". Transjordan later became the country of Jordan, and it was determined that the Jewish state would take up at least part of Palestine.

Things pretty much remained in a state of flux until after WW2. In 1947, the UN suggested partitioning the area into 2 states - 55% Jewish, 45% arab. On behalf of the Jewish people, David Ben Gurion tentatively accepted the offer, but the Arab League rejected it.

Perhaps it is worthwhile pointing out at this point that the British Mandate of Palestine was tiny. Compared to the size of the Arab countries, it is a very small area: -

Image

There was widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews until the British decided to pull out because they couldn't handle it at the time. Hours before they did, Israel declared independence in 1948 with the borders that the UN had suggested. The immediate Arab response was to invade. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq joined the Arabs who were in the 45% of the territory and invaded on all sides. Any one of those countries vastly outnumbered Israel in population and geographical size. Israel managed to beat back the invasion and actually captured some additional land.

In 1967, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt had been hinting at war, and Egypt expelled UN Peacekeeping Forces from the Gaza Strip. When Egypt closed the strategic Straits of Tiran to Israeli vessels, and the Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian forces were massing, Israel took a pre-emptive attack and managed to defeat all three and decimate their air forces, despite being outnumbered again. In the process, Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, and Golan Heights. The Sinai was later returned to Egypt following the signing of a peace treaty. As far as I know, Israel attempted to return the Gaza Strip to Egyptian control in the 1970s as well, but they rejected it.

The West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, and Golan Heights have remained under disputed ownership. Israel believes that they are rightfully a part of Israel. They were not even planed to be captured, but were all captured in defence.

Israel has been under constant attack from most Arab countries since the day it was created as a modern day state. From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,580 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks. Despite the fact that Israel is a miniscule fraction of the land mass of the Arab world, the Arabs refuse to accept its existence.

Israel has been trying to negotiate peace with the "palestinian" Arabs, who's stated objective has pretty much always been the destruction of Israel. The stated charter of the PLO under Yasser Arafat was to "push the Jews into the sea", and Hamas also have a similar objective.

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Postby sam_vimes » June 26th, 2006, 10:20 am

wow....... i feel so dumb now
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Postby Archaic Lobster » June 26th, 2006, 10:58 am

Yeah, but the fact of the matter is, Isreal took the land. It doesn't matter how much they own in comparison to the Arabs- that's irrevevant. If you've been turfed off your land that's distressing in itself. You don't care how much it is, or how much is left.

It's the continuation of arrogence of both sides that has prolonged the conflict, to be fair. Israel just wants to stay where it is, and the Arabs want the land back. Both sides have been wrong in the past (I mean, look at the God damn missile attacks), not just the Arabs.

Mind you, most of the credit recently should go to Isreal, since they are actually trying to solve the conflict by negotiation. Also, the Arabs have lost a lot of sympathy by blowing themselves up in civilian crowds, and God knows Hamas is dangerous.
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Postby wizzard » June 26th, 2006, 4:41 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:Yeah, but the fact of the matter is, Isreal took the land.


That's also an unfair simplification for several reasons. For a start, there was never a "palestinian" country to take the land from. Not only that, but the majority of the Arab populations in those areas have remained in their homes, and in a lot of (I think most) cases have become Israeli citizens.

Archaic Lobster wrote: It doesn't matter how much they own in comparison to the Arabs- that's irrevevant.


Well, not entirely. I was trying to point out that the Arab world in general refuses to accept the existence of a Jewish state, even when it was just within the original UN borders. If you imagine this from my point of view as a Jew, I feel that the Arabs are trying to destroy Israel a bit at a time until we have no national country left.

1948 was the first time in thousands of years that we had the opportunity to have our own country again, and as Nazism demonstrated quite graphically in WW2, we cannot feel safe anywhere else, and Nazism was really just 1 event in a string of events spanning thousands of years. It was a particularly bad one, but the point that I am making is that historically, Jews have never been very safe in any other country.

Archaic Lobster wrote: If you've been turfed off your land that's distressing in itself. You don't care how much it is, or how much is left.


If you read some of the articles I linked to on WorldNetDaily (which, by the way are posted by an Arab, not a Jew), you'll see that it isn't so clear that the land was actually Arab-owned anyway.

Quite apart from that though, do you really expect any sovereign country to sit there and just be attacked without defending itself? Israel is being hit by multiple terrorist rockets every day at the moment since it gave up the Gaza strip. Imagine if the IRA were firing rockets over at various towns in the south of England and the Irish government were encouraging them, and all negotiations failed. What would you want the government to do then? To sit around and do nothing?

Archaic Lobster wrote:It's the continuation of arrogence of both sides that has prolonged the conflict, to be fair. Israel just wants to stay where it is, and the Arabs want the land back.


I don't agree - I believe that a lot of the Arabs want the total destruction of Israel.

Archaic Lobster wrote: Both sides have been wrong in the past (I mean, look at the God damn missile attacks), not just the Arabs.


What would you have done? Negotiations aren't working. If you don't retaliate, they just attack more. Since giving up the Gaza Strip, the attacks on Israel have become more and more frequent.

Archaic Lobster wrote:Mind you, most of the credit recently should go to Isreal, since they are actually trying to solve the conflict by negotiation. Also, the Arabs have lost a lot of sympathy by blowing themselves up in civilian crowds, and God knows Hamas is dangerous.


Yes. I also think that it says a lot that Hamas was democratically elected. Presumably that means that the majority of the voters are in favour of the policy of the total destruction of Israel. How are you supposed to negotiate with a country that democratically elects terrorists?

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Postby Archaic Lobster » June 26th, 2006, 5:56 pm

wizzard wrote:That's also an unfair simplification for several reasons. For a start, there was never a "palestinian" country to take the land from. Not only that, but the majority of the Arab populations in those areas have remained in their homes, and in a lot of (I think most) cases have become Israeli citizens.

I never said there was a single Palestinian country that they took land from. It helps not to look at this in terms of nations, but it terms of the actual people involved. For instance, if I'd been turfed out of the place I'd lived all my life (as had my family), I'd be mad, too.

wizzard wrote:Well, not entirely. I was trying to point out that the Arab world in general refuses to accept the existence of a Jewish state, even when it was just within the original UN borders. If you imagine this from my point of view as a Jew, I feel that the Arabs are trying to destroy Israel a bit at a time until we have no national country left.

It really does bother me when political figures talk of 'erasing Israel from the map', but you can understand the people who actually have the right to be mad, since they were turfed off. Thugs like Iran will obviously try to champion the cause of Islam and so on by reclaiming the land, but they have no right to, since it doesn't involve them.

wizzard wrote:1948 was the first time in thousands of years that we had the opportunity to have our own country again, and as Nazism demonstrated quite graphically in WW2, we cannot feel safe anywhere else, and Nazism was really just 1 event in a string of events spanning thousands of years. It was a particularly bad one, but the point that I am making is that historically, Jews have never been very safe in any other country.

Although I agree that Nazism did shake Jews everywhere, why do you need to take over another country just to feel safe? There are plenty of countries across the globe that would welcome Jews. Forcing an entire race and culture upon another country doesn't seem like a clean-cut decision to me.


wizzard wrote:If you read some of the articles I linked to on WorldNetDaily (which, by the way are posted by an Arab, not a Jew), you'll see that it isn't so clear that the land was actually Arab-owned anyway.

Could you link me some specific articles? I'm not being sarcastic, I really would like to read them.

wizzard wrote:Quite apart from that though, do you really expect any sovereign country to sit there and just be attacked without defending itself? Israel is being hit by multiple terrorist rockets every day at the moment since it gave up the Gaza strip. Imagine if the IRA were firing rockets over at various towns in the south of England and the Irish government were encouraging them, and all negotiations failed. What would you want the government to do then? To sit around and do nothing?

No, but an Israel missile attack against civilians is no better than a Palestinian rocket attack against civilians was the point I was trying to make.
And negotiation is beginning to prevail (possibly) in Northern Ireland. Again, that's a good example of two different kinds of people hating each other for reasons that are now extremely trivial.

I don't agree - I believe that a lot of the Arabs want the total destruction of Israel.

Most who do are just trying to gain support of the Muslim community for their jihads and military campaigns. Most arabs, I think, don't care, except those who actually live in Palestine. And negotiation will prevail, in time.

wizzard wrote:What would you have done? Negotiations aren't working. If you don't retaliate, they just attack more. Since giving up the Gaza Strip, the attacks on Israel have become more and more frequent.

And if you retaliate, they attack. This thing has gone on for so long now, I suspect, that both sides are beginning to lose sight of what their original objectives were sixty years ago, and are beginning to gear up into pointless, tradition-ridden hatred.

wizzard wrote:Yes. I also think that it says a lot that Hamas was democratically elected. Presumably that means that the majority of the voters are in favour of the policy of the total destruction of Israel. How are you supposed to negotiate with a country that democratically elects terrorists?

Was the hamas manifesto itself proposing total destruction? Or the liberation of land?
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Postby wizzard » June 26th, 2006, 7:39 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:I never said there was a single Palestinian country that they took land from.


What do you mean "single"? There was no country there. The land used to be part of the British Mandate, and at the time Israel captured it, "Palestine" meant the area which Israel was 45% of according to UN guidelines.

Archaic Lobster wrote: It helps not to look at this in terms of nations, but it terms of the actual people involved. For instance, if I'd been turfed out of the place I'd lived all my life (as had my family), I'd be mad, too.


I'm pretty sure that the only people who have been turfed out of their homes were terrorists. Most of the Arabs that left the area did so after warnings from the surrounding Arab countries that Israel was going to come under attack.

The point that I am making is that Israel generally doesn't turf people out of their homes, certainly not in any great quantity.


Archaic Lobster wrote:It really does bother me when political figures talk of 'erasing Israel from the map', but you can understand the people who actually have the right to be mad, since they were turfed off.


Except that they never were! Not only that, but this has been going on since before Israel even existed as a modern state.

Archaic Lobster wrote:Although I agree that Nazism did shake Jews everywhere, why do you need to take over another country just to feel safe?


What country? If you are talking about Israel as declared by the UN guidelines in 1947 then that was according to the UN. You do realise that there were already a number of Jews living in the British Mandate of Palestine? All that happened in 1948 was that they declared an independent state, in accordance with UN guidelines.

If you are talking about 1967 then again, there was no other country in most of the area that was taken over (the Sinai was given back to Egypt later). I'm not denying that there were people living there, but most of them stayed living there. They had no government before and they were not citizens of any country. Israel captured the land in order to help defend itself against a number of armies who were all outnumbering it. If they hadn't done, Israel probably wouldn't be there now.

Archaic Lobster wrote: There are plenty of countries across the globe that would welcome Jews.


Do you have any idea of the level of antisemitism that is present in most countries? I live in England, which is one of the better places. When I walk down the street I get people shouting "Jew" at me from passing cars. Someone has attacked me in the past. I have had someone firing water at me, and that's just me. I know other people who have had far worse, including a child having his ear slashed at with a knife, and an adult being hospitalised.

Archaic Lobster wrote: Forcing an entire race and culture upon another country doesn't seem like a clean-cut decision to me.


I really don't know what country you are talking about, and have you ever been to Israel? There are a large number of Israeli Arabs, many of whom are happy to be Israeli. They are under no pressure to stop being Muslims. Their mosques are all intact, including the very large one at the holiest Jewish site in the world. They are treated as proper citizens of Israel. No one is trying to make them Jewish, no one is trying to change their culture. There are plenty of Arab towns within Israel that are quite distinctively Arab, and no one tries to stop there being. The road signs all have Arabic on as well as Hebrew.


Archaic Lobster wrote:Could you link me some specific articles? I'm not being sarcastic, I really would like to read them.


Fair enough - it is a while since I had an argument like this and I forgot that they'd have fallen down the list - I'll try to dig them up...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

That's a good one to start with, but there are more. I think it links to some others.


Archaic Lobster wrote:No, but an Israel missile attack against civilians is no better than a Palestinian rocket attack against civilians was the point I was trying to make.


Well, at least Israel don't aim at the civilians. Yes, it is a tragic mistake when civilians are hurt, but Israel is attempting to defend itself. It isn't always so clear cut anyway. The news always likes to make a big thing whenever there is a chance to blame Israel, but then the articles like this rarely make such big news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5074792.stm

I'm not trying to deny that it does happen, but Israel is under attack on a daily basis. Every day the soldiers stop multiple terrorist attacks. Most days, unfortunately something manages to get through.

Archaic Lobster wrote:And negotiation is beginning to prevail (possibly) in Northern Ireland.


Yes, but the Irish government were never trying to wipe England off the map.

Archaic Lobster wrote: Again, that's a good example of two different kinds of people hating each other for reasons that are now extremely trivial.


Except that Israelis don't hate the Arabs. Yes, there are a few who do, but that is largely people who have lost family members and close friends. I think most people hate the terrorists, but then most people would.

On the other side of the border, kids under the palestinian authority are being taught how to become suicide bombers in school.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17707


Archaic Lobster wrote:Most who do are just trying to gain support of the Muslim community for their jihads and military campaigns.


Does that make it any better?

Archaic Lobster wrote: Most arabs, I think, don't care, except those who actually live in Palestine. And negotiation will prevail, in time.


Why? Where is there a rule that negotiation will prevail?

Archaic Lobster wrote:And if you retaliate, they attack.


And if you don't then they attack anyway.

Archaic Lobster wrote: This thing has gone on for so long now, I suspect, that both sides are beginning to lose sight of what their original objectives were sixty years ago, and are beginning to gear up into pointless, tradition-ridden hatred.


I don't think so - I believe the objectives have remained the same. The Arabs are sticking to their declaration of 1948 that they want to wipe Israel off the map, and Israel is sticking to its declaration of 1948 to defend itself and remain a sovereign country.


Archaic Lobster wrote:Was the hamas manifesto itself proposing total destruction? Or the liberation of land?


"Hamas, whose charter calls for Israel's destruction,"

I should also point out that the PLO had the exact same philosophy:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29242

It isn't even limited to "palestine"...

http://www.zoa.org/2005/12/oped_irans_call.htm

Imagine living in a street when a few of your neighbours are shouting that they want your house knocked down while you are in it, they keep firebombing it and sending their children to blow themselves up if you answer the door to them. Imagine that there was no police to call, and you have nowhere else to go. Fine, maybe most of the neighbours aren't doing anything, so you probably feel sorry for them too, but wouldn't you take things into your own hands?

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Postby Archaic Lobster » June 27th, 2006, 11:39 am

Ok, ok, I obviously touched a nerve there. The thing is, it has got to stop. Justification with religion, nationality or even race is never acceptable. Ever.

That place had been oppressed by everyone: the Romans, the Turks, and even the British. Now, while the natives see Britain giving all her colonial assets back, they think they'll get the area back. This is excellent, because do you know what Britain did in all her countries? Take a look at the globe: America was exploited to phenominal degrees, Zimbabwe was stolen and had its name changed to Rhodesia, then to have all the natives exploited and Ireland was split into Catholics and better-off Protestants. So when they hand everything back, they give all the refugees and Jews in Palastine Israel. They give it money and prosperity, blatently neglecting the other countries in comparison.

You also keep getting the idea that I'm saying that Israel is all bad, not right at all. I wasn't. I'm saying that both have done things to upset the other. Lately, I admit, the arabs have been far worse. I wasn't condoning it. I was saying why they do it.

And yes: negotiation works. If you want a war for eternity, go ahead. If both sides can't pull both their weight, you may as well. Compromise and tolerance appear to be rapily becoming dirty words -and I'm not just talking about Jews, before you get that idea.
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Postby wizzard » June 27th, 2006, 9:01 pm

Archaic Lobster wrote:Ok, ok, I obviously touched a nerve there.


Let me put it this way. I live in England. I am getting married in August. My fiance and I are planning to move to Israel in a few years, partly because we feel a lot safer there. Yes. You've touched a nerve. We don't feel safe in England. There is rampant anti-semitism across Europe and the US. We feel that Israel is the safest place on the planet for us, but it is constantly under attack every day.

Archaic Lobster wrote:The thing is, it has got to stop. Justification with religion, nationality or even race is never acceptable. Ever.


Who was talking about justification? It isn't a matter of what's right, it is a matter of not having any other options.


Archaic Lobster wrote:That place had been oppressed by everyone: the Romans, the Turks, and even the British. Now, while the natives see Britain giving all her colonial assets back, they think they'll get the area back.


Which "natives"? What do you mean by back? And what area are you talking about?

Archaic Lobster wrote:This is excellent, because do you know what Britain did in all her countries? Take a look at the globe: America was exploited to phenominal degrees, Zimbabwe was stolen and had its name changed to Rhodesia, then to have all the natives exploited and Ireland was split into Catholics and better-off Protestants. So when they hand everything back, they give all the refugees and Jews in Palastine Israel.


But that never happened. Britain left the mandated area (which had no actual countries in) because the mandate expired. They didn't hang around because they could see trouble brewing. Britain refused to implement the UN plan because they said it wasn't acceptable to both sides. When Britain planned to pull out, the state of Israel wasn't declared, and they wanted to be well out of the way when trouble hit. Britain may have just been trying to get out of the way, but they were leaving the Jews unprotected, surrounded by enemies on all sides and totally outnumbered. I don't know who made the call on pulling out, but they must have expected the Jews to get wiped out.

Archaic Lobster wrote:They give it money and prosperity, blatently neglecting the other countries in comparison.


That's not true. The US and the EU pour money into "palestine", but you know what happens? Most of it goes into a few individuals pockets. People like the late Yasser Arafat. A lot of it also goes to actually fund terrorists. see this article http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=250109


Archaic Lobster wrote:You also keep getting the idea that I'm saying that Israel is all bad,


No I'm not, but I think that a lot of what you are saying is untrue and unfair.


Archaic Lobster wrote:not right at all. I wasn't. I'm saying that both have done things to upset the other. Lately, I admit, the arabs have been far worse. I wasn't condoning it. I was saying why they do it.


Oh, I know why they do it. Basically, they are brainwashed. They are kept in poverty by their leaders because it suits them to keep them unhappy with Israel, and they really believe it is Israel's fault. I don't really see that that makes much difference though. I'm not saying that they have it easy. The average man on the street in Gaza City has a very tough life. I'm not disputing that. I do feel sorry for them, but at the end of the day Israel has to defend itself.

Do you have any idea how much Israel provides to the "palestinians"? If Israel disappeared, they would not be able to survive.


Archaic Lobster wrote:And yes: negotiation works.


Where is the proof that it always works? Apart from anything else, who have Israel ever had to negotiate with? Every leader of the "palestinians" has always been under the banner of an organisation which has a primary aim of wiping Israel off the map. How can you negotiate with someone who just wants to kill you? And you know what - Israel have still always tried.

Archaic Lobster wrote:If you want a war for eternity, go ahead.


Neither side wants that. Israel wants peace, and the "palestinians" want to wipe Israel off the map. Okay, fine, maybe not all of them, but their democratically elected government does. People who are moderate there don't have any control over the situation - they never get any power. Bear in mind that on Sep 11th 2001 the people were cheering in the streets in Gaza City.

I don't care about revenge. I just want to be able to go to Israel and live the rest of my life there without worrying about the people I care about every time I hear of another bomb going off or another terrorist running through the streets stabbing people. It is easy for you to sit there in the comfort of your own home with any say that negotiation will work, and believe me, I do understand why you believe that, but I just don't. There are too many people who want Israel wiped off the map more than they want peace, and a lot of them are in power. We're talking about people who get taught in primary school that they will go to heaven if they blow themselves up and kill Israelis.

You can ask me what is best to do if negotiation doesn't work, and the answer is that I don't know. I sincerely believe that negotiation doesn't solve the problem. Fighting also doesn't solve the problem, but if you stop defending yourself against terrorists, they just attack more. I don't think the solution is anything simple. I don't even know if there is one at all.

Archaic Lobster wrote:If both sides can't pull both their weight, you may as well. Compromise and tolerance appear to be rapily becoming dirty words -and I'm not just talking about Jews, before you get that idea.


I realise you aren't, but don't forget that Israel has just given up a pretty big chunk of land (the Gaza Strip). Since they have, terrorist attacks have multiplied several times over.

Also, can I remind you of something else. As long as Israel has existed, there have been large groups in all the surrounding countries trying to wipe Israel off the map. Israel has never wanted to wipe anyone off the map. The only times Israel has taken land are for defending itself. When you are vastly outnumbered by people who want to wipe you out, you've got to do everything you can to protect yourself.

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Postby Isil » June 28th, 2006, 4:43 pm

Ummm... I thought talking about politics is forbidden here... ?
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Postby The_Bad_Man » June 28th, 2006, 6:12 pm

There are no rules against it as per-say, normally i'ts just forbidden when i get involved as previous experience dictates from that point everything goes to hell in a hand basket.
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